Jesse Leite
Posts: 16
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Registered: 17 Apr 2008
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ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 16:09 GMT
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Hello,
I am new to panoramic photography. I just started getting into doing virtual tours. I have photographed one home, and I am trying to assemble the panoramas now. I have searched and read countless posts and blogs about these programs, however I am wanting a more informative answer about the differences between these programs.
*Note that I am currently on a PC, but I just sold my PC laptop and will be buying Mac for doing most of my photo work. I am looking for good programs that are available for mac, OR are cross platform.
The first program I tried was Pano2VR for compiling flash and QTVR movies. I think it is an awesome program. I am definitely willing to buy it if I don't find anything better. But I like the options is has, and am quite happy with what it can do.
Now let me tell you my experience with Photoshop. I have been using Photoshop for quite a while and feel that I am fluent in using it. However, now that I am getting into panos, I feel that CS3's Photomerge still is not up to snuff. I have gotten a few really great 360 panos by using Photoshop's Photomerge and Pano2VR, but when things go wrong there is no way of defining control points manually. I have spent hours and hours trying to find a good way to stitch a 360 panoramic in photoshop. If anybody has any tips here, please let me know. I am beginning to believe that I really need to invest in a different stitching program though.
Yesterday I downloaded PTgui (which I understand is available for mac as well). It seems to be a great program, but I notice there is more of a learning curve. It took me about an hour to stitch a 2 row panoramic (as opposed to a few minutes using Photoshop's Photomerge), but I really like how easy it is to define control points. Even after I was finished, my panoramic still had a few vertical lines that didn't line up properly, etc. If I spent some more time, I could probably perfect it more. However, since I am getting into virtual tours with my company, I do not want to spend an hour or more on each pano. Here are some specific questions I have about PTgui:
1. How long does it take you guys to stitch a 2 row pano using PTgui?
2. Could anybody recommend any good tutorials on using PTgui effectively?
3. How does the mac version of PTgui compare to the PC version?
4. I notice PTgui can compile QTVR .mov files. However, it does not seem to give you as many options as Pano2VR. Am I missing something, or is PTgui more meant for the stitching process, requiring the user to look into a program like Pano2VR for better movie compiling?
Lastly, I have read a little bit about other PanoramaTools front ends such as Hugin and PTmac:
1. How do these programs compare to PTgui?
2. Are any of them easier to use compared to PTgui?
3. Do they have as many features? What are the pros or cons to each.
Thank you in advance! I am desperate to know your opinions as I am still very much a beginner. I need to make a purchase soon, but do not want to purchase a program to find that there are better programs out there. I need some help making an educated decision!
Best Regards,
Jesse
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irieman
Posts: 140
Location: East Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Jul 2006
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 16:45 GMT
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1 once you have calibrated your lens and have a template (as in type of pano output/lens params/image params - not a full Precision template) for projects it shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes
2 those on the PTgui website www.ptgui.com/examples/
3 we'll assume that you have done the sensible thing and bought a Mac 
4 better to use Cubic Convertor and Pleinpot for mov output.
Output blended and layers from PTgui and use PS for any layer adjustments required to correct ghosting or other nasties.
Now that you have a Mac you can download enfuse and enjoy via XFuse or Bracketeer if you need tonemapping - or specify it as the blender in PTgui - also enblend which does a remarkable job - you will need to do a little retouching at the zenith.
I really do think that PTgui (Mac version) is an outstanding piece of software and represents the best value for money and greatest performance available - if you find the learning curve steep then practice - it won't take long until you are getting good results.
However, there is no short cut to producing high quality panoramas, there is no piece of software, code or other "hidden" magic trick that others know about and you don't - like anything else if you want to be good you have to work at it.
I would advise anyone wanting to shoot panoramas commercially to allow at least three months of hard work before even attempting to sell your services - and that assumes that you are a proficient photographer at the beginning.
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Jesse Leite
Posts: 16
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Registered: 17 Apr 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 22:51 GMT
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I am sure there are tutorials on how to calibrate your lens. What does this do though? Is it something you physically do to your lens? Or is it done on the software end?
Just to clarify, I haven't bought a mac yet. I plan to in the next month or so though. Still just doing research. For now, I need to find a solution that is cross platform so that I can do panos on both my PC and a mac. This is why I was interested in PTgui, and also why I am interested in how PTgui compares between the PC and the mac version.
As far as shortcuts go, has anyone had success with the mirrorball approach?
Cubic Converter looks good. It looks like it does not compile flash movies though, which is something I was interested in. Thank you for the recommendation; I will look into it.
Lastly, what is tonemapping, and why would you need something like xfuse or bracketeer? You say I can specify them as the blender in PTgui on the PC? Does this mean I would be getting the advantages of those programs right in PTgui? Or are they just available for PTgui's mac version?
By the way, thank you for your reply. I appreciate the information!!
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klaus mayer
Posts: 79
Location: Australia
Registered: 15 Jan 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 0:11 GMT
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I am still a beginner but although I have purchased PTGui, I am still frequently using Hugin because I find it faster and more convenient to define control points.
I don't regret the purchase of PTGui but I think the control point part of the program still needs a bit of work because even with a pano head and no parallax I still get sometimes misalignments in the final output where Hugin does a perfect job. Hugin does not have all the features of PTGui but the Beta is for free.
Check out John's tutorials, they helped me a lot:
www.johnhpanos.com/tuts.htm
Can't comment on Mac because I use Linux and XP. Loved Macs because of their reliability but I prefer the hardware flexibility of PCs, i.e. I can change/upgrade/optimise cheaply.
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Jesse Leite
Posts: 16
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Registered: 17 Apr 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 4:07 GMT
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Thanks Klaus for your input, as well as the tutorials link. It looks like there is a lot of great information there.
I've been playing with hugin for a while now, but I actually do not like it's control point system as much. I found that in a detailed image, if I was defining control points from scratch (not allowing the program to find them automatically), it took sometimes 5-10 control points or more before it starting finding the second control point in the other image automatically. In PTgui, it seemed to happen after the first few control points. However, they both run on the Panorama Tools engine right? Why would it seem less sensitive than PTgui? I also like the magnifier in PTgui; I found it very handy. However, my opinion of hugin so far is probably pretty shallow as I have only played with it for about 10 minutes. I will keep playing with it though to see what I think after a few more panos.
I am beginning to really like PTgui. However, I still find using the panorama editor (where you drag and rotate the pictures) to be very awkward; especially when trying to straighten a horizon. Sometimes it seems like when I click and drag, it just makes the horizon worse. I assume this part of the program takes some getting used to.
Back on the subject of movie compilers, Cubic Converter only does QTVR right (not flash)? I know Pano2VR does both (and is cross platform which is nice). What other contenders are out there for mac? Are there any others that do flash?
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michael medina
Posts: 266
Location: portland, oregon, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 4:28 GMT
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for leveling the pano, learn to use vertical line and horizontal line control points (don't forget to check pitch and roll for image0 in the optimizer)
yes, cubic converter only does qt
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John Houghton
Posts: 2265
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 6:03 GMT
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michael medina said: (don't forget to check pitch and roll for image0 in the optimizer)
That isn't sufficient. You need to check pitch and roll on all images. Not necessary to check these in PTGui V7, though, if you alternatively click on the levelling option in the Edit menu on the Panorama Editor window instead of running the optimizer.
John
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michael medina
Posts: 266
Location: portland, oregon, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 6:45 GMT
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john
i believe by default that all the other boxes are checked but the ones in image 0 anyway. but yes check them all but roll in image 0 (maybe i'm mistaken there too, but it works for me)
i haven't had good success using the leveling option in the edit menu on the panorama editor window. even on the most carefully leveled panos i have shot. perhaps i have some twist in my pano head mixed with lens shift or something, but in any case, i've figured out this is the way to level my panos
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DorinDXN
Posts: 1671
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Registered: 14 Nov 2006
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 8:31 GMT
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jesseleite said: I am sure there are tutorials on how to calibrate your lens. What does this do though? Is it something you physically do to your lens? Or is it done on the software end?
Is only on software end, but if you use zoom lens the calibration is specific for a particular focal length used.
please read the excellent description posted by John Houghton here
www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/3004/
Dorin
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irieman
Posts: 140
Location: East Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Jul 2006
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 8:56 GMT
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Calibrating a lens is the process of removing inherent distortion which every lens exhibits ( the abc parameters in PTgui) It is an essential part of remapping the image to fit into place in the spherical environment of a VR image. I don't use Autopano so I don't know if it supports this function - the name suggests not. The point about calibrating a lens is that it is part of a standardized workflow that is accurately repeatable and therefor faster. The other parameters that you will see in the lens setting panel of PTgui (d and e) are for correction of sensor placement in the camera. Ignore g and t which relate to scanned images. Every lens, camera and lens/camera combination will exhibit differing abcde params so it is important to correctly calibrate your own equipment.
This will all lead you to a better workflow - and if you used in combination with a Precision panohead (360 Precision are a company - see other thread on this list re templates and batching) will save you a lot of time.
As all stitchers have Panotools as their underlying code a good starting point is wiki.panotools.org/ where you will find a huge amount of information.
One of the great functions of Cubic Convertor is the ability to drag and drop a cube face onto the desktop, retouch it and then drag it back into CC and compile the .mov file. This makes retouching the nadir very easy - I don't know if Pano2Vr has this function or if you have to use the extract and insert actions in Panotools - no doubt a PC user can enlighten you.
Tonemapping is blending different exposures to artificially extend the luminance range of an image beyond that which can be captured in a single image. It is useful when shooting interiors. These images are often incorrectly referred to as HDR. Creating a HDR file is part of the process but the end result is not HDR.
Xfuse and Bracketeer are Mac gui front ends for the enfuse algorithms which perform this function - there are PC gui available as well. For the moment I would wait until you have a reliable repeatable workflow producing panos before overloading yourself with this!!
Hope this is of use
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irieman
Posts: 140
Location: East Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Jul 2006
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 8:59 GMT
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irieman said:
(360 Precision are a company - see other thread on this list re templates and batching)
sorry - this is the thread www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/4674/
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stalwart
Posts: 78
Location: Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Registered: 20 Dec 2007
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 9:17 GMT
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I am very much a beginner, and I’m still learning (and will be forever!). I trialled all the commercial stitching software programs, but chose PTgui because it does represent value for money and is so capable of doing so much. Yes, the learning curve is very steep, only because you can do so much with it.
I then convert to cube faces with pano2vr, touch up (or usually hash) the nadir, and export the finished QTVR into Pleinpot. I have a long way to go before I offer my services commercially (and agree totally with irieman to allow quite a few months before selling yourself). My latest efforts are here: www.tinyurl.com/6o433o
Stu
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John Houghton
Posts: 2265
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 9:34 GMT
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michael medina said: but yes check them all but roll in image 0 (maybe i'm mistaken there too, but it works for me)
Michael, Perhaps you meant yaw not roll. To level with the optimizer, all the boxes need be checked except for yaw on one image, which will stop any sideways drift of the panorama, but that's not mandatory.
i haven't had good success using the leveling option in the edit menu on the panorama editor window. even on the most carefully leveled panos i have shot.
The "Level panorama" option does exactly the same as the levelling in the PTGui optimizer. With the PTGui optimizer, the levelling using the t1/t2 points is carried out as a separate operation after the normal optimization has been performed. This means the t1/t2 points cannot affect the alignment of the images with each other. This is not the case with PTOptimizer. The levelling performed by PTGui is completely independent of how well or badly you have levelled the tripod/head. I've never known it to fail. If you assign t1 points on two vertical features (not exactly 180 degrees of yaw apart), it is guaranteed to get those two features exactly vertical whether you use the optimizer or the option in the Panorama Editor.
John
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gus
Posts: 382
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 19 Jun 2007
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 9:53 GMT
updated: 18 Apr 2008 at 9:54 GMT
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Stu,
Sounds like, like me, you're having trouble with the nadirs.
Some tips to simplify nadir-editing work:
Tilt the camera down by 10° or so to reduce the size of the hole. You might find that the NN3 arm encroaches into view, but is easily dealt with in PS with a quickmask (open image, press "q" which enters quickmask mode, press "b" or click on brush, and paint the offending areas, then save and close. Ptgui will ignore these areas from the stitch. John has a more eloquent method using channel masks, which can be seen here :www.johnhpanos.com/alphatut.htm
Learn how to use the "patch" tool in PS, it’s magic, and deals with 90% of nadirs effortlessly.
Sometimes the effort to get the nadir perfect is simply not worth the result. Lets face it, the time spent on fixing the nadir, compared to the rest of the image, is not exactly in proportion to the area it occupies in the sphere!
You always have the option to limit the down-tilt. Personally, I'd rather be prevented from looking all the way down, than to stare into a hashed nadir attempt! The beauty of tilting the camera down by 10° means this area that you're cheating your visitor out of, is small indeed  Or limit your tilt until you perfect your nadir editing technique.
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Jesse Leite
Posts: 16
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
Registered: 17 Apr 2008
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Re: ptgui, ptmac, hugin, pano2VR, photoshop
Posted: 18 Apr 2008 at 16:13 GMT
updated: 18 Apr 2008 at 16:21 GMT
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Thank you all once again for the info and links! I am learning a lot.
John H, your tutorials are great. I will probably be reading them for years to come, as some of them are definitely more advanced than I can handle at this time. Thank you for them as well.
On the subject of Line control points (eg. t1, t2, t3), I have a test panorama of my living room at home here that I am having problems with. It is my first 2 row pano that I did. I am having problems with doors lining up from the top row picture to the bottom row picture. I tried using the vertical line control points, as well as the t3 line control points but still have no success. Here is a crop of my trouble doors:
Any advice on how to fix this?
After I define new control points, do I have to optimize the pano before creating a jpg? After I put the vertical line and line(t3) control points on the doors, I tried optimizing it with PTgui's optimizer and it doesn't seem to help. Since I am still on the demo version, I cannot use PToptimizer. Is PToptimizer better than PTgui's built in optimizer for stuff like this?
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