kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Which lens?
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 21:36 GMT
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Hey guys.
I'm kind of new at this pano thing but i just need a handpicking out a lens.
I'm ordering a NN4 RD16, and using my nikon D7000 to create full spherical panos, but I have no idea where to start with a lens?
i've got a 16mm fish eye (meant for full frame) and a 20mm prime as my widest lenses. Are either of these sufficient to do 360x180?
I worry because i foresee a problem of tilting up to get the zenith point (?) that all i will see is sky and have a very difficult time stitching together.
tanks for your help!
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mediavets
Posts: 2114
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 22 Jun 2012 at 22:16 GMT
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Kasenyee said: Hey guys.
I'm kind of new at this pano thing but i just need a handpicking out a lens.
I'm ordering a NN4 RD16, and using my nikon D7000 to create full spherical panos, but I have no idea where to start with a lens?
i've got a 16mm fish eye (meant for full frame) and a 20mm prime as my widest lenses. Are either of these sufficient to do 360x180?
I worry because i foresee a problem of tilting up to get the zenith point (?) that all i will see is sky and have a very difficult time stitching together.
tanks for your help!
Neither of those lenses is ideal, partly for the reasons you've suggested.
The Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye would be the best match for your D7000.
You could also consider the Samyang 8mm 3.5 AE version for Nikon fisheye; the Sigma 10mm fisheye; or the Tokina 10-17mm zoom fisheye.
Andrew
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 0:03 GMT
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cool thanks for that!
What's your recommendation about circular vs rectilinear fisheye? I Kind of like how the rectilinear is more useful but i imagine i would get better results form a circular.
thanks again!
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mediavets
Posts: 2114
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 6:53 GMT
updated: 23 Jun 2012 at 6:55 GMT
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Kasenyee said: cool thanks for that!
What's your recommendation about circular vs rectilinear fisheye? I Kind of like how the rectilinear is more useful but i imagine i would get better results form a circular.
thanks again!
I think you mean fullframe fisheye rather than rectilinear fisheye (a rectilinear lens is a non-fisheye lens).
All the lenses I mentioned are fullframe fisheye lenses producing an image that covers the whole of the sensor.
I believe that the only fisheye lens that will produce a full circular image on a Nikon DX body is the Sigma 4.5mm f2.8 fisheye.
Because the circular fisheye image does not utilise the whole of the sensor a lot of potential resolution is wasted and you still need a minimum of 3 shots for spherical pano which will have a much lower resolution than if you used a fullframe fisheye lens and a minimum of 7 shots.
Having setup your equipment the extra time required to shot those 7 images rather than 3 is negligible. I have never understood why anyone would use the Sigma 4.5mm fisheye lens.
The 'halfway house' is to use a Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye - designed to produce a full circular image on a fullframe sensor body - which wil produce a 'cropped fisheye' image on a DX body, with 180 degree FOV on the long axis of the senor and the sides of the circle cropped on the short axis. You need a min. of 4 portrait shots to create a spherical pano with this setup.
But that Sigma lens is quite expensive these days and the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye is still a better solution in my opinion for many pano shooting situations. I have both and find I mostly use the Nikkor 10.5mm. The Sigma 8mm would be preferred for scenes with moving subjects and/or if shooting from a monopod or a pole with a ring-style pano head; situations in which you could also use the Sigma 4.5mm but with loss of potential resolution.
What sort of panos do you wish to shoot?
Spherical or partial panos?
Interiors or exteriors?
Scenes with moving subjects or with still subjects?
There is no single camera/lens/pano head combination that is ideal for every sort of pano.
You can find some sample image sets shot with the Sigma 4.5mm fisheye on the agnos.com web site - look for the link to Samples.
You can also find sample image sets shot with various fisheye lenses on both DX and FX bodies here:
www.360precision.com/360/index.cfm?precision=prod....camlensinfolist
Andrew
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 16:08 GMT
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Hey Andrew
WOW thanks so much for that!
I understand there's no magic formula for lens/camera combo, but i'm looking for a hand picking the first one.
If understood you correctly, nikon 10.5 will take 7 shots to complete and yield higher results than a circular fish-eye - i think i might go this route.
I plan on shooting both spherical panos and high-res gigapixel size panos - but for the high res ones i will be using a long lens like an 85mm.
As for the spherical, I want to use it to document some of the places i travel to. A lot of time i get access to remote and rare buildings and islands that are once in a lifetime and would rather take a bit of extra time to get a better quality result than just do it fast and dirty.
I don't plan on having fast moving objects in the images, but what would be your suggestion if it was the case?
Is the 10.5 a good start to do interior/exterior spherical panos?
what kind of head do you use? Im thinking of a NN4 with RD16 and a some sort of ball head.
thanks for the links
and thanks for all your help! very much appreciated!!!!
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mediavets
Posts: 2114
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 18:56 GMT
updated: 23 Jun 2012 at 19:06 GMT
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Kasenyee said: If understood you correctly, nikon 10.5 will take 7 shots to complete and yield higher results than a circular fish-eye
That's correct. A min. of 7 shots (shooting positions) 6-around plus a zenith shot; 8 shots if you want to patch in the nadir to remove the tripod from the image. Of course you'd need to shoot several shots at each position if you want to use exposure bracketing and exposure fusion or HDR processing to handle a wider dynamic range.
I plan on shooting both spherical panos and high-res gigapixel size panos - but for the high res ones i will be using a long lens like an 85mm.
A robotic head would be useful for shooting hi-res gigapixel panos with the 85mm.
As for the spherical, I want to use it to document some of the places i travel to. A lot of time i get access to remote and rare buildings and islands that are once in a lifetime and would rather take a bit of extra time to get a better quality result than just do it fast and dirty.
OK.
I don't plan on having fast moving objects in the images, but what would be your suggestion if it was the case?
There's no simple solution for scenes with lost of movement but obviously the fewer images required to cover teh scene the better. So in that case the Sigma 8mm f3.5 would probably be the best option. You also need to expect to do quite a bit of image processing to manage the movement issues.
Is the 10.5 a good start to do interior/exterior spherical panos?
Yes, I think so.
what kind of head do you use?
I'm a bit of a collector of pano heads, I have heads from Nodal Ninja, Kaidan, Agnos and Bophoto, some would now be considered 'museum pieces'. But the three I use most are the NN5L, a very recently acquired NN4 with R-D16, and a Merlin/Panogear robotic pano head.
I'm thinking of a NN4 with RD16 and a some sort of ball head.
Some people like ball heads under their pano heads others hate the idea and say it's very easy to level a tripod by adjusting the legs.
A levelling centre column, available for some Manfrotto (aka Bogen) tripods, is probably better than a ball head, or something like the Novoflex Magic Balance:
www.novoflex.com/en/products/camera-support-syste...
The NN4 with R-D16 is fine for the D7000 with the 10.5mm fisheye; I picked one up a couple of weeks ago and it's very nicely made. The R-D16 rotator is 'overkill' really for that combination but it's a very 'flexible rotator should you later choose to use other lenses.
OTOH it wouldn't be that good for shooting hi-res gigapixel panos with an 85mm lens on a DX body because the pitch arm has fixed increment 15 degree positive locks (too large an increment for an 85mm lens on a DX body I think?) and the upper arm might not be long enough to set a D7000/55mm lens combo at the NPP, although this is less of an issue for such panos. The NN4 is designed for use with lens up to 100mm (35mm equiv.) focal length; an 85mm on a DX body exceeds that spec.
The Nodal Ninja 5 which is no longer on production offered the option of disabling the positive locks on the pitch axis so could more readily be used with longer focal length lenses. In some markets there are still a few 'factory irregular' models available.
The NN5 has been replaced by the more flexible and expensive Ultimate M-series range at the 'top end', and by the NN4 series at the 'lower end'(above the long established entry levsl NN3-series).
It's much easier to shoot hi-res gigapixel panos using a robotic pano head. Some robotic heads can be used to shoot both spherical panos and hi-res panos but they are all larger and heavier than manual pano heads.
I have the (relatively) low cost Merlin mount + Papywizard robotic pano head system; this is also marketed by Kolor (developers of Autopano Pro/Giga and Panotour software) as the Panogear system. It is based on a low(ish) cost astro-telescope dual axis motorised mount.
www.kolor.com/panogear-motorized-panoramic-head.h...
Other options (none of which are inexpensive) are:
Gigapan Systems robotic panos heads - you'd need the Gigapan Pro for your camera - no good for sphericals.
gigapan.com/cms/shop/store
The shortly to be launched Panoneed system from T&C in Germany good for both sphericals or hi-res.
www.kolor.com/forum/t14256-now-finally
The Seitz Roundshot VRDrive2 - good for both sphericals and h-res, from Switzerland.
www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d4...
The MK Panomachine 8 - good for both, from Germany.
www.vr-head.com/english/mk-panomachine/index.html
The Clauss Rodeon VR system, from Germany.
www.dr-clauss.de/VRhead_EN.htm
Andrew
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 20:20 GMT
updated: 23 Jun 2012 at 20:29 GMT
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Wow Andrew, you are awesome! i'm guessing you are not just a hobbyist?
---Ball head vs. Tilt/pan head
The reason i want to go ball head is so that when i'm doing the zenith and nadir point, the grip/arms won't get in the way. and playing with software like PTgui that allows you to chose your horizon, levelling is no longer as important to achieving a great shot.
----motorized head like a gig pan
I've considered using something like this but it's just to big an bulky for my style. When i travel i've got a back pack for my clothes and a back pack for my gear and that's it. I backpack often to East Africa and bringing big gear like that for several months isn't feasible. I'm leaning with NN because of it's size weight and how compact it is.
Thanks for the info on different types of heads though; had no idea they even existed.
is the NN5 the only one that can do increments other than 15 degrees?
the more expensive M-series? is that a NN product?
------"and the upper arm might not be long enough to set a D7000/55mm lens combo at the NPP"
what's NPP?
and would there be a difference on FX body if i used a 16mm fish vs a 14mm prime? is there anything special about using one over the other?
thanks sooo much for your help!
do you have a site where i can check out some of your stuff? i'd love to see some of your work.
Thanks again
alex
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DennisS
Posts: 1619
Location: Los Anglels, United States
Registered: 1 Sep 2007
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 21:01 GMT
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Alex,
I've considered using something like this but it's just to big an bulky for my style. When i travel i've got a back pack for my clothes and a back pack for my gear and that's it. I backpack often to East Africa and bringing big gear like that for several months isn't feasible
For your trips where you have to travel light, You could use a NN (Nodal Ninja) R1 pano head on top of a monopod. You would use a Sigma 8mm lens (or similar) on a camera like the Sony NEX-7 variety. 4 shots around tilted up at 5 degrees (fixed angle) plus a hand held Nadir patch shot will cover the sphere. My travel rig fits inside a small saddle back under my bicycle seat. My monopod goes inside my CamelBack backpack. www.dlsphoto.net/NadarBracket/index.htm scroll down a little to see a version of my monopod rig.
---Ball head vs. Tilt/pan head
Neither. Mount your pano head directly on your tripod. Depending on the tripod you use, you could purchase a NN leveler, leveling center column or adjust the length of each tripod leg in order to level out your pano head. As you mentioned, with PTGui's leveling features, getting your rig absolutely level prior to shooting is not as important as it used to be.
Dennis
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 21:21 GMT
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That is genius! i never would have thought of taking off my tripod head. Using a monopod/R1/R10 would;t be feasible since some of the places/buildings i will be shooting in will be rather dark; so hand holding nadir/zenith point won't work.
Thanks for that! you just saved me $700
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mediavets
Posts: 2114
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 21:24 GMT
updated: 23 Jun 2012 at 21:48 GMT
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Kasenyee said: Wow Andrew, you are awesome! i'm guessing you are not just a hobbyist?
Very much a hobbyist.
---Ball head vs. Tilt/pan head
The reason i want to go ball head is so that when i'm doing the zenith and nadir point, the grip/arms won't get in the way. and playing with software like PTgui that allows you to chose your horizon, levelling is no longer as important to achieving a great shot.
I was comparing a ball head to no tripod head (or levelling centre column or Magic Balance type gizmo). You can mount a pano head directly to the tripod with no tripod head, many do. But maybe you'd use the ball head for non-pano photography too?
----motorized head like a gig pan
I've considered using something like this but it's just to big an bulky for my style.
I don't think many people would opt for a robotic head as their only pano head, especially if they planned to shoot panos while travelling.
When i travel i've got a back pack for my clothes and a back pack for my gear and that's it. I backpack often to East Africa and bringing big gear like that for several months isn't feasible. I'm leaning with NN because of it's size weight and how compact it is.
Dennis is very experienced in choosing (and using) pano rigs for travelling.
Thomas Huang is too:
www.thomashuang.net/products.html
Is the NN5 the only one that can do increments other than 15 degrees?
The NN3 series has no fixed increments on the pitch axis - not sure it's big enough for the D7000 and it's certainly not suitable for a D7000 and 85mm lens to shoot hi-res gigapixel panos.
the more expensive M-series? is that a NN product?
Yes, but I don't think it's ideal for travelling. See:
store.nodalninja.com/index.php/pano-heads/m1.html
------"and the upper arm might not be long enough to set a D7000/85mm lens combo at the NPP"
What's NPP?
No Parallax Point - the position in which the camera/lens rotates on both axes around the Entry pupil:
wiki.panotools.org/No-parallax_point
You need to position the camera/lens at the NPP when shooting spehrical panos or partial panos where there are subjects close to the camera to avoid parallax.
and would there be a difference on FX body if i used a 16mm fish vs a 14mm prime? is there anything special about using one over the other?
Yes, you'd need many more shots (14 vs. 8) to cover a 360x180 pano FOV if using a 14mm rectilinear less compared to usinga 16mm fisheye. The 16mm fisheye on a fullframe FX sensor will require the same number of shots as a 10.5mm fisheye on a DX body.
This database provides a guide to number of shots required to cover 360x 180 FOV with various lenses and bodies:
www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/
Andrew
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 23 Jun 2012 at 22:21 GMT
updated: 23 Jun 2012 at 22:49 GMT
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AMAZING!
thank you sooo much for your help! you've save due so much time and waste money.
very much appreciated!
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vrbali
Posts: 192
Location: Bali, Indonesia
Registered: 12 Feb 2010
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 24 Jun 2012 at 5:57 GMT
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When you already have a 16mm fisheye (FX), I would start out with that lens first on your DX camera body, few more shots needed, but higher output resolution. Shoot your Zenith tilted 60deg up instead of straight up to get details for stitching.
Using a Sigma 8mm f/3.5 myself on D300 body, I would rather get the 10.5 Nikkor instead when you not shoot many pano's with movement involved in them. (also considering initial upgrade to full frame)
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kasenyee
Posts: 73
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 22 Jun 2012
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 26 Jun 2012 at 4:10 GMT
updated: 26 Jun 2012 at 4:11 GMT
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How do you find the NN4 vs. NN5? Any major differences in build quality and performance?
Have you played with the NN3 in comparison?
Just looking for some feedback on the differences between any of them. Other than the actual physical size and the type of lens/camera thye're meant for, any other differences?
I know the NN5 has been discontinued but i've been in touch with the company and they say they have some "factory irregular" models left, and from what they describe they're just models with cosmetic imperfections.
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DemonDuck
Posts: 418
Location:
Registered: 10 Mar 2011
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Re: Which lens?
Posted: 26 Jun 2012 at 4:59 GMT
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In my humble opinion, get the smallest one that your camera and lens will fit on. There can be a lot of wasted metal hanging off the ends otherwise.
You said you ordered the NN4. That should be all you need in a panohead.
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