esub
Posts: 71
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2011
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How much do you charge?
Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 14:37 GMT
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Hi.
This is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string' but roughly what is an average price for a single high-quality 360 photograph delivered to a client on a web page? I'm trying to decide on a price.
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Trausti - FFC
Posts: 57
Location:
Registered: 20 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 18:29 GMT
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HIGH quality pano price is in the range of 600-1500 USD.
AVERAGE quality pano prices range from 100-600
LOW quality pano prices are anywhere from 10-100
This is based on what I have been told over the past few years by people who make a living from panorama works, and the large differences in price are very much influenced on geo-location.
Interestingly, some of the lowest quality and lowest prices, seem to be found in the US realestate sector. Equally the highest quality and highest prices are also found in the US private sector.
Trausti
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esub
Posts: 71
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 22:41 GMT
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Thank you
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Tactus 360
Posts: 1245
Location: Tynset, Norway
Registered: 2 Sep 2010
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 12 Nov 2011 at 23:25 GMT
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But you probably won't get away with those prices in the UK. Norway probably commands the highest prices in the EEA. But the recession in Europe has hit tourism hard this year. F.eks. hotels are halving their prices, and the fleets of German and Dutch cars - normally seen in droves - have become a rarity this year. In the past, six tours a year would have provided me with a good salary; this year, everyone has scaled back such investments. I have diversitised (?) my work, and tours come 4th on the list. I am one of only a handful of commercial photographers offering tours here; we all miss the gravy train! There has been a steady increase of panographers starting up in the UK - if what I have seen from this forum corresponds correctly. Were I to move back to the UK, I would be considering under 100 quid for two, possibly three shots. More (but not much more) if the customer wanted a smells-and-bells GUI.
Jon
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Tourdesign
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 13 Nov 2011 at 13:56 GMT
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Jon, if you were to come to the UK offering your level of quality, you'd be able to command a lot more than just £100 for 3 tours, believe me.
Other than that comment, much of what Jon has said I agree with. The UK, for the past few years has seen countless 'photographers' start up offering virtual tours. Most, if not all, are poor quality examples and most, if not all, are those who have day jobs and are wanting to run their own business, and see virtual tours as an easy way to make a bit of dollar. There is also those who are between the ages of 15-20 and are still at school/college, and see virtual tours as a great business opportunity. All seem to think that offering a tour at around the £35 mark is the way to go.
Most disappear after they realise that the money they are spending on daily Adwords is going nowhere and that they can't compete with those running real companies, offering tours that are of a good photographic level and also offer a good GUI to accompany it. (I'm amazed I still see people churning out the standard KRPano and Pano2vr skins!)
Asking a question like the above (How much do you charge) on a forum like this is never going to give you a satisfactory answer. The few (successful) UK based tour producers who are on here are very unlikely to publicise their pricing. My response would be to work out how much you need to give you a reasonable level of living comfort, then work out how much you'll need to charge per scene (or job) based on certain amounts of scenes you may do per month. Also take into account marketing costs, travel costs (are you going to charge extra, or absorb in your pricing?), IT costs, equipment costs, car costs, VAT (if you're lucky enough to earn over the threshold) and Tax and so on. Do not market yourself on price, if this is your plan forget it. Their are too many out there in the UK offering tours at rock bottom prices, just starting out, offering free tours and so on to ever compete like this. To be able to earn a decent living in this game in the UK requires you to be producing tours at a high quality, offering the latest technology (e.g. HTML5), being able to travel all over the UK, offer a good level of interactive GUI, know what you're doing when it comes to marketing, I could go on.
One thing I will say is that I would think long and hard about what you're aims are, and whether you really want to start up a business in an already saturated UK market. I already, like Jon, diversify into other things such as still photography, and even some ventures completely un-related to photography. Maybe this is a little controversial, but crating virtual tours is becoming easier and easier to do, hence the influx of those who spend a few months with an NN3, entry level canon and a cheap fish eye lense offering dirt cheap tours. Just like the cost of still photographers has dropped over the last 30 years, the cost of tour photography will also drop more and more as it becomes easier and easier to put together a tour. Couple that with Google offering free tours, and the future for some tour photographers doesn't look too bright.
Again, all the above is simply my opinion.
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David Tan
Posts: 155
Location: Kualalumpur, Malaysia
Registered: 31 Mar 2010
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Trausti - FFC
Posts: 57
Location:
Registered: 20 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 14 Nov 2011 at 6:32 GMT
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Hi David.
You put me between a rock and a hard place. The panos themselves look good at first look, and non panorama related people would probably not find anything wrong with them at all.
Hong Kong Cafe.
Blown out windows. Window in the staircase has purple fringing, stitching error above the left upper corner of the staircase opening (seen in the yellow stripe on the ceiling), scratches and dirt on walls is "as-is", which would not be expected in a top-level pano, where dirty little secrets like that are removed for providing a clean virtual visit. Such clean-up takes extra time, and therefore it also adds to the price of the final project.
Sinou Kaffee Lobby
The whole scene is a bit over exposed, and again purple fringing is present, but more generally than in the Hong Kong Cafe pano. Cleaning up walls/ceilings/floors is not an issue in this pano, since it is a "rustic/authentic" place looking the way it does. No stitching errors spotted with my half-blind eyes.
Bike Shop.
To me it appears too much out of focus generally speaking. The "DT Swiss" sticker on the round table is in focus, so is the "Token" stand logo... everything else is much more blurry. There is dust on the lens, causing "orbs" in several places (best seen in the black ceiling). Purple fringing is also present in this one. Paper trash on the floor behind the 3 bikes that face the shop front serves no purpose... best to have such things removed before shooting, or in post processing. Dirty tape-glue stripes on the round table along with one of the drawers partially open with something in a squeeze and scratches and dirt on that table... equally make the whole pano less clean and nice.
What makes a good panorama project into an excellent project, is the personalized GUI it is provided with. A well designed layout is essential for making a client feel that THEY are getting something unique. Providing a standardized layout with a few standard buttons here and there... is simply the death of creativity. We are not all equally well gifted design wise, and I suffer severely in that department as well, but I do try to improve.
Too many commercial projects are provided with standard output design... be that through using FFC or other solutions, and it does get "tired" sooner rather than later to see the same designs over and over again, equally it is a real pleasure to see well construed layouts for projects, where we don't just have a "spinning image", but a full fledged interactive experience with sound, video, image slideshows etc. etc. etc. A spinning image (standard pano) is in many ways like a silent B/W movie from the beginning of last century, while projects with other media incorporated is like going to a modern cinema with high quality everything.
I have done a LOT worse than what you linked to, and I still make stupid mistakes that dumbfound me when I finally spot them (some are so big that it is amazing I didn't notice at once).
Personally I would place those panos in the "Average" category. Price wise I really can't say, since I don't know what is normal to pay for projects of whatever quality in your area. If these were for a European client, I think that without design, each pano could be as cheap as 100 euros (and again, it would depend on WHERE in Europe it was).
Trausti
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stalwart
Posts: 283
Location: Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Registered: 20 Dec 2007
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 14 Nov 2011 at 8:58 GMT
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- How much do you think you're worth?
i.e. - are clients accepting your quotes or going elsewhere because they can get the same level of quality cheaper?
- How much do you direct competitors charge?
One of my main competitors (an accomplished player who's been in the market for some time) I know for a fact charges £600 for a bespoke 15-scene tour (created in FPP) with radar, floor plan, nadir removal (no tripod cap) and includes a stills gallery too. And doesn't charge mileage! I could cut my prices to compete with that, but luckily I'm busy enough not to worry at the moment. But that shows how much some companies will cut their prices to win business, even for good quality work.
Stu
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David Tan
Posts: 155
Location: Kualalumpur, Malaysia
Registered: 31 Mar 2010
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 14 Nov 2011 at 9:04 GMT
updated: 14 Nov 2011 at 9:07 GMT
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Trausti - FFC said: You put me between a rock and a hard place. The panos themselves look good at first look, and non panorama related people would probably not find anything wrong with them at all.
I am sorry Trausti, I didn't mean to put you into that situation. It's really an honest assessment request from me so I can learn the VR quality of (I think) the best & busiest VR panographer in Indonesia! The 3 panos are one of his best panos.
Trausti - FFC said: Hong Kong Cafe. Blown out windows. Window in the staircase has purple fringing, stitching error above the left upper corner of the staircase opening (seen in the yellow stripe on the ceiling), scratches and dirt on walls is "as-is", which would not be expected in a top-level pano, where dirty little secrets like that are removed for providing a clean virtual visit. Such clean-up takes extra time, and therefore it also adds to the price of the final project.
Thanks for your meticulous assessment!
Trausti - FFC said: Sinou Kaffee Lobby. The whole scene is a bit over exposed, and again purple fringing is present, but more generally than in the Hong Kong Cafe pano. Cleaning up walls/ceilings/floors is not an issue in this pano, since it is a "rustic/authentic" place looking the way it does. No stitching errors spotted with my half-blind eyes.
Man...you've got eyes with 16-bit color palette!
Trausti - FFC said: Bike Shop. To me it appears too much out of focus generally speaking. The "DT Swiss" sticker on the round table is in focus, so is the "Token" stand logo... everything else is much more blurry. There is dust on the lens, causing "orbs" in several places (best seen in the black ceiling). Purple fringing is also present in this one. Paper trash on the floor behind the 3 bikes that face the shop front serves no purpose... best to have such things removed before shooting, or in post processing. Dirty tape-glue stripes on the round table along with one of the drawers partially open with something in a squeeze and scratches and dirt on that table... equally make the whole pano less clean and nice.
Is it really important to stage the place to be as clean as possible? I thought the job of VR panographer is only to take the shots. But it's always nice to see everywhere is clean and tidy.
Trausti - FFC said: What makes a good panorama project into an excellent project, is the personalized GUI it is provided with. A well designed layout is essential for making a client feel that THEY are getting something unique. Providing a standardized layout with a few standard buttons here and there... is simply the death of creativity. We are not all equally well gifted design wise, and I suffer severely in that department as well, but I do try to improve.
Well, I didn't know that it's not enough just to take the panos and display them in a standard GUI provided by the KrPano/FPP/FCC/Pano2VR default templates. Creating nice custom GUI presentation is quite difficult. I wonder if there is any pros at Panoguide offers such a service.
Trausti - FFC said: Too many commercial projects are provided with standard output design... be that through using FFC or other solutions, and it does get "tired" sooner rather than later to see the same designs over and over again, equally it is a real pleasure to see well construed layouts for projects, where we don't just have a "spinning image", but a full fledged interactive experience with sound, video, image slideshows etc. etc. etc. A spinning image (standard pano) is in many ways like a silent B/W movie from the beginning of last century, while projects with other media incorporated is like going to a modern cinema with high quality everything.
I get your points. But do clients really care about paying extra for a more creative output design? If they don't, why spend more time or resources on doing it?
Trausti - FFC said: I have done a LOT worse than what you linked to, and I still make stupid mistakes that dumbfound me when I finally spot them (some are so big that it is amazing I didn't notice at once).
That's a humble side of you that all pros should have to keep on improving for perfection!
Trausti - FFC said: Personally I would place those panos in the "Average" category. Price wise I really can't say, since I don't know what is normal to pay for projects of whatever quality in your area. If these were for a European client, I think that without design, each pano could be as cheap as 100 euros (and again, it would depend on WHERE in Europe it was).
The price tag for each pano (I think) is about US$90-$100.
Maybe you know a website where I can see a lot of High Quality Panos?
Thanks Trausti for your expert commentary on those 3 panos. I still don't dare to show you my panos, at least until I can correct the many same mistakes. But after I manage to correct them in future panos, I may ask for your assessment (if you don't mind).
Again, thanks for your eagle-eyes!
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Trausti - FFC
Posts: 57
Location:
Registered: 20 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 14 Nov 2011 at 9:35 GMT
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There are many sites with high quality works... If I mentioned all those whom I think are exceptionally good, I would for sure be forgetting some whom I think are equally great, or not mention some whom I think are good, but not great... and that might hurt some people's feelings.
So... my safe way out of this with the skin on my nose, is to point towards my own site www.flashificator.com , where you will find 3 superb examples made by Terry Montague ( www.regal360.com ), marked as "Advanced Tour Examples #1 #2 #3". In my personal, private and honest opinion, those projects are some of the best tours ever made in the history of digital panoramas.
Trausti
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Tourdesign
Posts: 52
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 14 Nov 2011 at 9:47 GMT
updated: 14 Nov 2011 at 10:03 GMT
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stalwart said: One of my main competitors (an accomplished player who's been in the market for some time) I know for a fact charges £600 for a bespoke 15-scene tour (created in FPP) with radar, floor plan, nadir removal (no tripod cap) and includes a stills gallery too. And doesn't charge mileage!
Stu
That is worryingly low, if you take off, say, £100 for travel costs (fuel, wear and tear, tax, etc on say a 150mile round trip), that leaves you with £500 for 15 scenes. That equals around £33 a scene. How on earth is he running a business at a level to support himself with costs like that?
Now to the inexperienced, £500 for 1,2 or maybe even 3 days work sounds like a good deal. The problem is there isn't enough VR work (without monthly marketing) to enable you to be doing 2 or 3 jobs a week that you'd need to realistically support yourself and a family (when you take into account the marketing you'd need, taxes, various insurances, your pension).
I must admit, I price check every 6 months and haven't come across a good quality supplier charging that sort of price.
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2791
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Trausti - FFC
Posts: 57
Location:
Registered: 20 Aug 2011
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rockjano
Posts: 38
Location: Solymár, Hungary
Registered: 30 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 20 Nov 2011 at 0:44 GMT
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Hi Trausti
Thanks for the link. They make really beautiful panos at www.regal360.com.
How do you think they make the photography parts of the story? I don't talk about the skin that is just professional and tasteful flash programming (surely not Pano2Vr or similar)
The tonality are out of this world. I am sure it must be some kind of HDR pano. Probably lot's of Photoshop work with a lot of local adjustment.
Probably a composition of more than one HDR pano's taken at different time's in a day. All the light's inside or up but there is no yellowness as it should be.
Also the outside view is perfect it seems to be sunset.
I am talking about this scene here:
www.regal360.com/index.php/component/content/arti...
Any idea why is it sooo nice?
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Trausti - FFC
Posts: 57
Location:
Registered: 20 Aug 2011
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Re: How much do you charge?
Posted: 20 Nov 2011 at 18:31 GMT
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rockjano said: I don't talk about the skin that is just professional and tasteful flash programming (surely not Pano2Vr or similar)
The skin is done with NO flash programming. It is entirely done with Flashificator, which gives the users full freedom to make projects with tens of thousands of lines of code in the xml file, without having to know anything about coding. No other panorama GUI product can match the feature richness of Flashificator (fact, not spam).
rockjano said: The tonality are out of this world. I am sure it must be some kind of HDR pano. Probably lot's of Photoshop work with a lot of local adjustment.
Probably a composition of more than one HDR pano's taken at different time's in a day. All the light's inside or up but there is no yellowness as it should be.
Also the outside view is perfect it seems to be sunset.
I am talking about this scene here:
www.regal360.com/index.php/component/content/arti...
Any idea why is it sooo nice?
Terry uses a variety of programs in his image processing, and the exact processes he uses are his business secrets.
His photographer is very skilled and uses high end photographic equipment and normally uses bracketing to have enough for creating HDR projects.
Terry is an artist and a professional, and seems never to run out of ideas when it comes to designs and features and functions. Real professionals choose the best tools there are, and that is what Terry does... which again explains why his projects are so nice 
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Trausti
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