Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 13:45 GMT
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Wasn't totally sure what to post this thread under? Tips & Tricks, Gallery or here under Q&A.
I settle on Q&A because it is sure to raise Questions that I guess I will attempt to Answer!
Finally I managed to escape the office and shoot a panorama with the Sony NEX 5. I didn't get out until after 5pm and the clouds had come it and ruined my plans, but nevertheless I promised to deliver so here you go.
Equipment:
Sony NEX 5
Fotodiox Nikon G lens Adapter
Vivitar 7mm Fisheye (Samyang 8mm Re-badge)
The Sony NEX5 is an APS-C sized sensor x1.538 mirrorless camera. The sensor size is like that of a Canon or Nikon type small sensor DSLR like the 600D, D7000 etc.
It is tiny: 111x 59 x 38mm
It weighs: Approximately 287ｇ (10.1 oz) including battery and Memory Card. tinyurl.com/sony-nex-review
The Fotodiox Nikon "G mount" to Sony "E Mount" adapter allows you to mate your Nikon "G mount" lenses to the Sony NEX "E Mount" camera. This only mates the camera physically. There are no electrical contacts, so you need to use the lens as full manual. That said, the Sony NEX seems to meter OK and the Fotodiox adapter has a manual aperture adjustment dial and a 1/4" tripod thread.
www.fotodiox.com/product_info.php?products_id=651
The Vivitar 7mm Fisheye is a rebadged Samyang 8mm Fisheye and although the Vivitar is slightly different to look at when compared to the Samyang 8mm optically these are the very same lens.
tinyurl.com/vivitar-7mm-fisheye
tinyurl.com/samyang-8mm-fisheye
View the sample panorama www.omnipix.net/temp/nex/
Circular Focal Length as per PTGui
Horizontal FOV
Crop Edge for Maximum Pixels
Crop Settings by Numbers
You can download the source images (compressed .jpg format) and my PTGui .pts file if you would like to have a play. tinyurl.com/omnipix-nex-pano-set
Note: Limited time and limited downloads
All in all, I very please with the results for my first attempt outside of setting up in my office. Yes, there are shortcomings. But this was never to be a replacement for my full size DSLR cameras.
What do you think?
Regards, Smooth 
www.omnipix.com.au
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VRwave
Posts: 108
Location:
Registered: 19 Mar 2006
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 14:24 GMT
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It looks great 
This camera is going to be a favorite for aerial panoramas.
How much does the Fotodiox adapter weigh ?
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2871
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 14:50 GMT
updated: 24 Mar 2011 at 14:52 GMT
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Hi Smooth
I had a look at the images and did some tests.
It seems to be a large problem with this lens when you choose circular crop.
You get very bad automatic controlpoints even if I keep the lens correction you have.
Actually it produces unusable stitches with up to 2000 pixels errors.
Sometimes these are from the rotator but you also get them from controlpoints generated between image 1 and 3, 2-4 etc
Changing the crop to fullframe and 9mm produces perfect stitches automatically every time.
Shooting just 5 images might also work to get rid of the bad controlpoints.
You only need to shoot -5 with this lens that will usually not include the rotator. You should only include the rotator for doing a test of settings.
I am really curious also how you did get those controlpoints in the sky on 3 image pairs.
None of my tests produced any controlpoints at all in the sky and the ones you have has no features for doing it manually. I tried letting PTgui do it after clicking in the first but that produced errors of 30pixels.
To me the quality of a lens should also be measured in how good automatic controlpoints PTGui can produce from a perfect setup.
There is a large difference between different lenses and fisheyes perform different with circular and fullframe crop.
Hans
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jannefoo
Posts: 61
Location: Finland
Registered: 3 Jun 2009
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:27 GMT
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Umm, why use circular crop at all if the whole image fits inside the crop circle?
Anyway, the test images stitch fine using 8.9mm and stereographic lens projection with Hugin. In that regard, the lens behaves exactly as it does on my D200.
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:30 GMT
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VRwave said: How much does the Fotodiox adapter weigh ?
The Fotodiox Adapter weighs 93g with tripod foot adapter attached. Obvioulsy it will be less with it removed. As I have just used "Loc-tite" on the screws to add stability I'm not going to take it apart again now.
Hans Nyberg said: I had a look at the images and did some tests.
It seems to be a large problem with this lens when you choose circular crop.
You get very bad automatic controlpoints even if I keep the lens correction you have.
Actually it produces unusable stitches with up to 2000 pixels errors.
Sometimes these are from the rotator but you also get them from controlpoints generated between image 1 and 3, 2-4 etc
Hi Hans,
Hmm, firstly you have only the compressed .jpgs to test with, so maybe the 16 bit .tiffs are better for the control point placement to some degree. Please understand that I rushed to make this and I chose to do this one circular to gain the maximum pixels. I mentioned in the original thread that you can do fullframe and circular.
Hans Nyberg said: Changing the crop to fullframe and 9mm produces perfect stitches automatically every time.
Shooting just 5 images might also work to get rid of the bad controlpoints.
Yes, all valid points. But the panohead used has only the options of 45 and 60 degree click stops. I could have shot 4 rotational shots or 6 and chose 6. Last time when I tested and posted the Samyang sample I did it with 4.
Hans Nyberg said: You only need to shoot -5 with this lens that will usually not include the rotator. You should only include the rotator for doing a test of settings.
Yes, -5 degrees is enough. I did this with -10 degrees to capture the panohead to show the Nadir footprint. This "daylight" version also showed me that my left to right is very slightly out.
Hans Nyberg said: I am really curious also how you did get those controlpoints in the sky on 3 image pairs.
None of my tests produced any controlpoints at all in the sky and the ones you have has no features for doing it manually. I tried letting PTgui do it after clicking in the first but that produced errors of 30pixels.
You manually place the control points.
Hans Nyberg said: To me the quality of a lens should also be measured in how good automatic controlpoints PTGui can produce from a perfect setup.
There is a large difference between different lenses and fisheyes perform different with circular and fullframe crop.
Not sure what you are totally getting at here. I'm not having any issue with control points and their placement. These images practically fell together for me. You can plainly see that my .pts file is good.
Whether the Samyang is the perfect lens or not isn't the question. The results for the money prove it is a very worthwhile lens. You can choose fullframe 9mm or circular 9mm as the kick off and PTGui will deal with the images quite well.
The .jpgs I uploaded to share are EXIF data modified. I have added f/stop and aperture values and of course they have already been corrected for Chromatic Aberration.
Regards, Smooth
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:37 GMT
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jannefoo said: Umm, why use circular crop at all if the whole image fits inside the crop circle?
It's all about "Pinching Pixels" the circular crop version gives a maximum pixel panorama of 11532x5766
Whilst the fullframe version gives you 10664x5332
You can do either. But circular is a substantial gain in pixels.
jannefoo said: Anyway, the test images stitch fine using 8.9mm and stereographic lens projection with Hugin. In that regard, the lens behaves exactly as it does on my D200.
Yup, that's what you get, the same as any other APS-C DSLR, just with a tiny little camera. Thanks for your Hugin feedback.
Regards, Smooth
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2871
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:48 GMT
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Smooth said: Hans Nyberg said: I am really curious also how you did get those controlpoints in the sky on 3 image pairs.
None of my tests produced any controlpoints at all in the sky and the ones you have has no features for doing it manually. I tried letting PTgui do it after clicking in the first but that produced errors of 30pixels.
You manually place the control points.Hans Nyberg said: To me the quality of a lens should also be measured in how good automatic controlpoints PTGui can produce from a perfect setup.
There is a large difference between different lenses and fisheyes perform different with circular and fullframe crop.
Not sure what you are totally getting at here. I'm not having any issue with control points and their placement. These images practically fell together for me. You can plainly see that my .pts file is good.
Whether the Samyang is the perfect lens or not isn't the question. The results for the money prove it is a very worthwhile lens. You can choose fullframe 9mm or circular 9mm as the kick off and PTGui will deal with the images quite well.
Regards, Smooth
I do understand that you do manual controlpoints, that was not my question. I just was curious how you could set perfect manual controlpoints at 3 places with absolutely no features at all but a plain gray sky.
I do not think the jpg compression has deleted anything there.
To me it is important that the auto controlpoints generated by PTGui are as good as possible and that is very different from lens to lens.
Without them you can not do batchstitching and I do that also with nadir included.
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:49 GMT
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As a matter of interest, according to my digital scales the weights are as follows:
Sony NEX5 with Battery and Memory Card = 290 grams
Vivitar 7mm Fisheye without Lens Caps = 393 grams
Fotodiox Nikon G Apapter = 93 grams
Total = 776 grams
Of course then you add you panohead etc.
Regards, Smooth
www.omnipix.com.au
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2871
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 15:53 GMT
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Smooth said: jannefoo said: Umm, why use circular crop at all if the whole image fits inside the crop circle?
It's all about "Pinching Pixels" the circular crop version gives a maximum pixel panorama of 11532x5766Whilst the fullframe version gives you 10664x5332
You can do either. But circular is a substantial gain in pixels.jannefoo said: Anyway, the test images stitch fine using 8.9mm and stereographic lens projection with Hugin. In that regard, the lens behaves exactly as it does on my D200.
Yup, that's what you get, the same as any other APS-C DSLR, just with a tiny little camera. Thanks for your Hugin feedback.
Regards, Smooth
Really Smooth.
What Ptgui calculates from circular or fullframe is completely uninteresting.
None of them can give you the real resolution from your originals and you do not get more resolution because you use circular or fullframe.
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 16:06 GMT
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Hans Nyberg said: I do understand that you do manual controlpoints, that was not my question. I just was curious how you could set perfect manual controlpoints at 3 places with absolutely no features at all but a plain gray sky.
I do not think the jpg compression has deleted anything there.
If you have multiple other images with good control point alignment from top to bottom of the image. Then adding other control points on image pairs even lacking features is possible by manually placing them. These really aren't needed, but then neither is a "too good to be true" result! Yet, I posts these regularly. It's just part of my usual workflow.
Hans Nyberg said: To me it is important that the auto controlpoints generated by PTGui are as good as possible and that is very different from lens to lens.
Without them you can not do batchstitching and I do that also with nadir included.
Yeah, that is just the trade off in the workflow you choose. One way is not the only way! For you, the trade off of less pixels by using the lens as fullframe should give the the control point placement you desire. But then a good template on a bullet proof sturdy panohead and you only need 3 control point per image pair anyway. Automatic? no, but I don't have a need to batch - I have no interest in fast turnaround low quality real estate tours.
If I do three or four paid tours a week, I class myself as busy.
Regards, Smooth
www.omnipix.com.au
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 16:09 GMT
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Hans Nyberg said: Really Smooth.
What Ptgui calculates from circular or fullframe is completely uninteresting.
None of them can give you the real resolution from your originals and you do not get more resolution because you use circular or fullframe.
The "Maximum" image size that PTGui produces differs from one version to the other. This is the point I'm making.
Regards, Smooth
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2871
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 16:17 GMT
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Actually with this lens I would do this.
This solves any problems with rotator and tripodlegs and it did in my 3 tests give me perfect controlpoints automatically. Also from zero lens settings.
If you do not have a panohead that supports shooting at -5 this is a good solution.
And you have still enough overlap for the zenith at -10.
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 16:42 GMT
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Hans Nyberg said: Actually with this lens I would do this.
... and the maximum output size from PTGui is?
Regards, Smooth
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2871
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 17:18 GMT
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The maximum output is what i set.
Why would I use the suggested output from PTGui.
The max optimal resolution can never be anything that is suggested by PTGui.
In most cases you should reduce the PTGui suggestions with 20% to get maximum quality.
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 4013
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: Sony NEX 5 - Samyang Fisheye - Panorama Sample
Posted: 24 Mar 2011 at 17:25 GMT
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Hans Nyberg said: The maximum output is what i set.
Why would I use the suggested output from PTGui.
The max optimal resolution can never be anything that is suggested by PTGui.
In most cases you should reduce the PTGui suggestions with 20% to get maximum quality.
You can back this up with some proof, real life example? What if you choose 20000x10000? The maximum is shown for a reason. Joost (PTGui) is no fool. There has to be an optimal maximum. I trust PTGui to give the appropriate answer.
Anyway, I feel you are taking the tread in a different direction. Please start a new thread if you have more to add on the maximum size discussion.
Regards, Smooth
www.omnipix.com.au
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