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Thread: Lets talk money!

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Rudge

Posts: 29
Location: Windsor, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Sep 2010
Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 11:41 GMT
updated: 26 Sep 2010 at 11:43 GMT
I'm putting together some costings this week and would be really interested to know what the average rates are to supply professional quality VR's?

Such as for single VR's and also Tours.
Are taking into consideration the different types of clients? such as a property job for an estate agent that will only be used until the house sells opposed to a business such as a hotel or leisure facility that may leave it on their site for many years?

Do you charge extra for HDR.
I did a search on this forum but could not find a thread on the subject.
I am particularly keen to hear what the guys in the UK charge, as I live here.
In the UK I'm seeing large VR companies doing them quite cheaply, so has the bottom fallen out of this work for the single operator or is it that there is always a position for quality operators?

I spoke with one estate agent this week who said at the top end its coming back in again, which was encouraging!

Your views as ever are much appreciated.

So don't be shy, what do you charge? and can you make a living from it still?
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Hans Nyberg

Posts: 2874
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 12:08 GMT
I do not know what you search for but this has been discussed again and again.

Here are a cuple of threads.
www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/7412/
www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/5798/
www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/157/
www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/5552/

Hans
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Rudge

Posts: 29
Location: Windsor, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Sep 2010
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 15:41 GMT
Thanks Hans,
Followed the links, however it would be great to hear actual prices, particularly in the UK of what the going rate is in these two areas?
From the links £100-£200 per view seems to be the norm?
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 16:17 GMT
Rudge
While Han's links are helpful, but things do change

I've noticed the hotels I market to are more interested in virtual tours this year than they were just a couple years ago

I just raised my price to US$150 per scene for a 10 scene tour and $175 for less than 10 and am getting just a little price resistance

I think the recession is getting a lot of hotels, resort & B&Bs to look at marketing tools they hadn't commited to before

Still photos are an extra $350

I use HDR on all my work

What I've been doing is writing a series of articles about how hotels can use virtual tours to make more sales and that seems to have an impact

Real Estate Tours go for a lot less in the US than they do in Europe from what is said here on Panoguide. I charge $129.95 for 4 scenes and that include a charge to me of $19.95 to post the tour to Realtor.com. Fifteen still photos are $69

I had planned to raise my price for real estate tours this year, but home sales are down and payment has been slow, so I'm holding onto my customers instead

Hope that helps

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Rudge

Posts: 29
Location: Windsor, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Sep 2010
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 20:08 GMT
That's great Doug, I do like it when people are open about there pricing, it also shows confidence.
Nice one..
Anyone in the UK that can give me the heads up please??
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 26 Sep 2010 at 21:15 GMT
Mine are on the low end of the scale as I'm trying to built some volume

Two US companies that specialize in hotel virtual tours used to have published prices of $3000 and $2000 for 10 scenes, PhotoWebUSA.com and ICEPortal.com respectively.

I know one will negociate prices and suspect so will the other

Take care

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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stalwart

Posts: 316
Location: Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Registered: 20 Dec 2007
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 27 Sep 2010 at 18:14 GMT
Hi,

The critical question to answer is: What do you think your work is worth? Have you got an example of your current work we could look at?

I could divulge what I charge - but then my competition would probably undercut me, so I do keep my prices fairly secret.

I charge enough to:
- pay the mortgage and have a very comfortable life;
- have clients come back regularly for repeat business;
- clients recommending me to friends / colleagues, etc.

I have been in business now for 18 months, and the 'new business honeymoon' period is over. It is very hard work out there getting business, but if you price it right, there are customers.

My aim when I started out was getting exposure to some 'big hitters' in the property market (I am a chartered surveyor by trade - commercial realtor to those of you on the other side of the pond) so know hundreds of agents & property developers. I was cheap to start with, but over the last 12 months I have gradually been increasing my prices, and so far no one has declined a commission, so I must still be cheaper than the competition. Also, try to add something unique to your work that your main competition does not do.

Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near the residential market. With people such as eHouse flogging crappy tours (www.ehouse.co.uk/virtualtours/standard2/8008652.h...) for peanuts, which the agents seem happy with, there's no way I could complete (if I wanted to). I would have to water my brand down so much to stoop to their level.

cheers
Stuart
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Terry Montague

Posts: 342
Location: Boise Idaho, United States
Registered: 31 Oct 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 27 Sep 2010 at 18:34 GMT
updated: 27 Sep 2010 at 18:46 GMT
There are far more good reasons to keep ones prices private than there are good reasons to post them publicly. I don't see confidence as being a factor in displaying prices. I can however see some underhanded ways to use this information against your competitors should you know what they charge. I am not insinuating that this is what you are doing but it should be apparent to anyone reading this in your area that it might be unwise to divulge this type of information. Which could explain the limited number of posts there on this topic.

I have to agree with Stuart, without knowing what your tours are worth in terms of quality I don't see how valuable other peoples prices will be for you. In the case of Doug I honestly do believe he is a safe position from being undercut. At least from where I sit there is no way I could compete with those prices. I should also add that your prices starting out will be much different than say someone who has an established business. I think you will find that your initial prices will change as your business grows.

So while this is an important question you will need to answer, I don't know how much help we can give you. Determining what your product and market will bare is a pretty complicated task.

This is of course just my opinion based on my experience.
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 27 Sep 2010 at 19:29 GMT
Rudge
The range of £100 to £200 ($150-$300) sounds pretty normal in the USA for non-real estate tours.

Part of the way I can offer my lower pricing is by using simpler capture methods (3 shots) and faster processing (Oloneo PhotoEngine is a very fast HDR processor).

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Sam Rohn

Posts: 321
Location: Brooklyn, New York, United States
Registered: 5 Mar 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 27 Sep 2010 at 21:17 GMT
updated: 27 Sep 2010 at 21:41 GMT
another thing to bear in mind is that there are several different markets for VR & still panoramic imagery, such as real estate, low & high end hotels, museums, advertising, etc, all with different needs and budgets

my prices are quite a bit higher than doug's, but i am in a totally different market with totally different clients, so its apples and oranges, i don't see his business model as being in conflict with mine, and of course NYC & ABQ are totally different places

in the end, i charge what i feel my time and work is worth and what my market will bear, and try to be flexible when appropriate

sam

- - - - -
Sam Rohn :: Panoramic Photography :: www.samrohn.com :: Location Scout :: www.nylocations.com :: New York City
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mediavets

Posts: 2178
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 28 Sep 2010 at 0:22 GMT

Doug Aurand said:

Rudge
The range of £100 to £200 ($150-$300) sounds pretty normal in the USA for non-real estate tours.

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM

When you say 'tours' here do you mean a single Flash pano?

Andrew
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 28 Sep 2010 at 15:03 GMT

mediavets said:

Doug Aurand said:

Rudge
The range of £100 to £200 ($150-$300) sounds pretty normal in the USA for non-real estate tours.

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
When you say 'tours' here do you mean a single Flash pano?


Andrew
Yes, that's per single image whatever format

Sorry for the poor choice of words

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 28 Sep 2010 at 15:15 GMT
Where you're located has more to do with overhead costs than cost of producing tours.

I've shot hotels in Canton, OH, Visalia, CA, Nogales, AZ and the 5 I did in Texas this summer, as well as several around New Mexico with the hotels paying all the travel expenses and I stay and eat at the hotel free.

So living in a region with a lower cost of living and doing business, affects the prices I can offer all over the country.

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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David Tan

Posts: 155
Location: Kualalumpur, Malaysia
Registered: 31 Mar 2010
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 3:05 GMT

Doug Aurand said:

I've shot hotels in Canton, OH, Visalia, CA, Nogales, AZ and the 5 I did in Texas this summer, as well as several around New Mexico with the hotels paying all the travel expenses and I stay and eat at the hotel free.


Doug, as part of the paid travel expense, free room and board, do they ask you to lower your prices? Or is it a common business practice for these hotels to give you those stuff as complimentary?

Is it also common for VR providers to charge the hotels a monthly subscription fee for hosting the panos on the VR provider's server?
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Lets talk money!
Posted: 20 Oct 2010 at 15:23 GMT
David
Why would they ask me to lower my price just becasue I have legitimate travel expenses to get to their hotel and while I'm there shooting it?

Of course they have to evaluate the total cost of the shoot including travel expenses.

As far as a complimentary room, they either have to reimburse me for staying somewhere, possibly at a competiter, or give me a free room that would otherwise sit empty. Its cheaper to give me a room

Meals were something I had to get comfortable requiring them to pay or provide. Most of the hotels I've shot in the last year and a half offered a Free Breakfast Buffet with a room, so there was little extra cost to them to serve one more person. As far as lunch and dinner, the MCM Hotels just told me to charge my meals to my room and they took care of it. I do order the lower or mid priced items on the menu, especially for dinner. But the cost to the hotel to serve one more person is just the cost of the food (not the menu price), so its a lot less expensive for them to provide free meals than have me eat at another restaurant and reimburse me.

I do try to keep airfare down by flying Southwest airlines whwnever I can, because they have low fares and they don't charge for checked bags (I always have one to check with all the stuff I carry for a shoot). If I'm driving out of town I charge for mileage.

My terms are 25% of the job and all the estimated travel expenses paid in advance and I must receive the deposit before I buy the tickets (thats in the proposal). If they take too long to pay the deposit and a lower fare is no longer available, they will be billed for the actual fare (thats in my proprosal too).

For local area jobs, I will show up for the shoot but they have to have a deposit check for me when I arrive or I don't start the shoot

I don't host any of the tours I've shot, every one I've done wanted to incorparate it into their website which is why they like the simplicity of the Flash .swf file, one Javascript .js file and a woking .Html webpage from Pano2VR. But companies like PhotoWebUSA and ICEPortal include hosting for the first year as part of the shoot, beginning to charge for hosting and distribution the second year

Hope that helps

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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