Forum: Q & A

Thread: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post

back to threads list | this thread is closed

messages 1-15 of 131

Prev 1 2 3 4 5 next

Author

Message

Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008

VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 30 Aug 2010 at 15:27 GMT
The Washinton Post did agreat story about a virtual tour provider in Maryland www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/201... www.unique360tours.com It tells how they started with real estate tours and have expanded into other areas, particularly university sports facilities Coverage like this can help all of the commerical virtual tour photographers because other universities may like the idea and look for some one to do their facilities Doug Aurand Albuquerque, NM
alert moderator

Peter Stark

Posts: 389
Location: Glasgow, United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Sep 2007

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:34 GMT
Afraid I am not impressed with the either the washington post article or the site & sample tours. To my eyes the article only shows that the reporter doesnt know the subject he is reporting on and must be very easily impressed as both web site and sample panoramas are a not very good. For the web site itself, when attempting to view the sample tours, my browser window resized (both ie and firefox) this shows a problem with the source code and is quite off putting for viewers. As for the sample tours,,,,you are kidding surely? Come on, no one could be impressed by this? I would think that coverage like that could actually do more damage than good. Suppose there is one plus point though; All the current presidents men will be able to sleep easy at night as the post seems to have dropped their game a bit.
alert moderator

Guest

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 9:59 GMT updated: 14 Mar 2011 at 16:13 GMT
Well Peter... I completely agree with you. The sample tour(s) are absolutely hideous, but some people... be that sports arena managers or Washington Post writers... and even panorama content providers in this case, are completely blind. The panos are shot with 2 shot lens... would that be Coastal Optics? Absolutely terrible. I mean... only 2 shots, and we have serious stitching errors... buildings broken apart... and colouring differences as if it was "winter view vs summer view" in the same pano. No. Anyone embracing this kind of work, clearly needs some education in the field of panorama making!

Tactus 360

Posts: 1228
Location: Tynset, Norway
Registered: 2 Sep 2010

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:41 GMT updated: 2 Sep 2010 at 20:27 GMT
Trausti said: Anyone embracing this kind of work, clearly needs some education in the field of panorama making! Or perhaps not! I believe that such tours as these are beneficial to those of us who try to make something very good . . . I still think that, once users begin to see the quality tours made by most of the contributors to this forum, people like this will be pushed aside in the rush. We are never going to get rid of such people, but they rarely last long when it comes down to it. Then they bugger off in search of another fast buck. Jon
alert moderator

Guest

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 10:57 GMT updated: 14 Mar 2011 at 16:13 GMT
I really would like to go with that theory Jon, but... we all know that dog-crap really sticks to one's shoes, once we step into it.

David Tan

Posts: 155
Location: Kualalumpur, Malaysia
Registered: 31 Mar 2010

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 11:56 GMT updated: 31 Aug 2010 at 11:59 GMT
If our business is to make money, as much as we can from VR, and we know that most average clients don't really understand what stitching error is, then why we waste too much time striving for perfection when the aforementioned time can be spent on making more VRs like www.unique360tours.com does? Unique360tours.com's portfolio keeps on growing and they walk happily to the bank every week while we are busy debating about their VR poor quality. I have questions for the pros: How many percent of clients out there that really care about perfect VR? If there are more clients who don't bother with Unique360tours.com's VR quality, then why are we upset with their lack of appreciation towards perfect VRs? Or maybe Unique360tour doesn't have competition in their area?
alert moderator

Guest

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 12:16 GMT updated: 14 Mar 2011 at 16:13 GMT
David Tan said: How many percent of clients out there that really care about perfect VR? Present a "perfect" project to a potential client, alongside with a crappy 2 shot image project, and 100% of the potential clients will want the good quality. If they are only presented with crappy quality, and told that this is the best they can get... then that is what they will accept. After all they are not the experts. Who would want something bad, when something good could be had? Different price? Sure, there is a difference going to eat at McDonalds and eating at a good restaurant. Both in price and in quality. Would any sane business person invite their clients to eat at McDonalds, rather than at a real restaurant? It would be suicide to do such a thing. Trausti

Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 15:16 GMT updated: 31 Aug 2010 at 15:38 GMT
Trausti Your comparison is about extremes as usual Yes, if a customer compares the work I can produce with my Nikon Coolpix 5400/FC-E9 and my Canon XTi with either my Sigma 8mm or Coastal Optics 4.88mm, they will see a difference But if they compare your work and mine, or your work and David's, all produced with SLR cameras & appropriate lenses, they won't find enough difference to want to pay the price you charge Not every customer wants or can afford a Mercedes or BMW, many are very happy with a Ford or VW Its so apparent that you hobbyists don't understand doing this as a business, is not about the photography, its about the customer. If the university in the story can recruit better with the virtual image images, then the images are "just right" as the desription of the middle bed in the story of the 3 Bears goes. In commercial work the purpose isn't the photography, its the benefit to the buyer. Trausti, I wouldn't invite my clients to McDonalds, but I don't have to take them to High Finance or the Ranchers Club (the 2 "best" and most expensive restaurants in Albuquerque), I would take them to the Range Cafe which has great food, good service and moderate prices. Don't you understand there's a huge range between your simplistic approach; good & bad, perfect & crappy? And that huge middle range is where most paid virtual tour work is done? Doug Aurand Albuquerque, NM
alert moderator

Terry Montague

Posts: 339
Location: Boise Idaho, United States
Registered: 31 Oct 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 15:55 GMT
I think Peter and Trausti are correct with their critique. What I find troubling is the excuses I hear from David and Doug for poor work and poor quality. "If our business is to make money, as much as we can from VR, and we know that most average clients don't really understand what stitching error is, then why we waste too much time striving for perfection" Sorry to attack you David but this type of comment is troubling because it hurts the industry and it says allot about your work ethic. Taking advantage of a client who doesn't know what a stitch error is, is no excuse to not fix it. Have some pride in what you do. Now if this happens to be the best they can do then I don't really have any other comment other than I hope they keep striving to get better. Doug there is of course a range in quality and ability among VR providers but I think one should always strive to produce a tour to the best of their ability what ever that may be. A half assed approach should always be frowned upon or at least pointed out for what it is. If people don't set standards for their own work then they shouldn't be surprised when others do it for them.
alert moderator

mediavets

Posts: 1948
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:28 GMT updated: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:29 GMT
Terry Montague said: I think one should always strive to produce a tour to the best of their ability what ever that may be... But...just to play Devil's advocate...they say: www.famous-quotes.net/Quote.aspx?The_perfect_is_t... Andrew
alert moderator

Terry Montague

Posts: 339
Location: Boise Idaho, United States
Registered: 31 Oct 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:43 GMT updated: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:45 GMT
Fair enough but anyone who knows they can fix a stitch error or other problems with a pano and chooses not to because they think they can get away with it due to their clients ignorance is not even aiming for "good" let alone "perfect".
alert moderator

Doug Aurand

Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:48 GMT
Terry Peter and Terry and you are right, there are several ways the images in the 360Uniques' work could be improved. I can produce better work than I provide my real estate customers and hotel customers. It would take more time, new equipment, new software, etc. I'd have to charge more for the work to make a profit At this point, I've been unable to find customers who want to pay more for a virtual tour. I frequently stop working on real estate stills or a real estate virtual image because it will simply take too long to get what I'd like to see. I'm very comfortable with the idea that I'm already producing the best real estate work for the price they want and can afford to pay. And I'm constantly improving my work. After you pointed out the misalignments in one of my hotel tours that I and the customer both missed, I've added a step where I follow the seams from the Nadir up to make sure I don't have that same misalignment. I also restitched the images you pointed out and offered them to the hotel company. They don't seem to be in any hurry to replace them, becasue they haven't So I find it insulting that you think I and David may be "taking advantage" of customers by providing images that don't meet your standards. I'm making prsentation to a hotel/casino today. I'll show them my work, quote my price and let them make the decision. They have every opportunity to shop around. Would you like me to suggest you? What would your price be for 10 virtual images and 30 still photos, images only? Doug Aurand Albuquerque, NM
alert moderator

Terry Montague

Posts: 339
Location: Boise Idaho, United States
Registered: 31 Oct 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 16:56 GMT updated: 31 Aug 2010 at 17:08 GMT
Sorry Doug, I didn't mean to include you in the "taking advantage" comment as that was only something David had mentioned. And to be fair he seems to be asking what is wrong with that idea more than that is something he does. And hearing that you fixed those stitch errors is exactly what I am talking about when I say to the best of your ability assuming you knew they were there and had the ability to fix them. The only criticism I had for you was that your comments seemed to be an excuse for poor quality but after your last post I think I must be mistaken. I commend you for making those changes even if the client didn't request them... that IS taking pride in your work.
alert moderator

makiedog

Posts: 37
Location: United States
Registered: 10 Jul 2008

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 17:30 GMT
Ah, the age-old saying: Price, quality and speed, the client can only pick 2 I guess its easy to sit here and judge someone's work without knowing what kind of constraints their projects have.
alert moderator

Guest

Re: VTour Company gets great story in Washington Post
Posted: 31 Aug 2010 at 21:49 GMT
updated: 14 Mar 2011 at 16:13 GMT

Doug Aurand said:
I would take them to the Range Cafe which has great food, good service and moderate prices.

Don't you understand there's a huge range between your simplistic approach; good & bad, perfect & crappy?

Yes I do, that is why I didn't use an example where the clients would be taken to a hot-dog-street stand to the business meeting. After all, McDonalds does have seating available, and access to bathrooms and parking spaces. I gave an example of American middle class dining facility, and not the worst thinkable scenario.

Considering the overall real-estate market in the US, and how the pricing structures are, and the fact that realtors are not willing/able to pay for what they'd get for good quality, well, then there are only two options left: Bad one/two shot panos with no post processing or no service at all. (Not including the high end properties in this, since those obviously have the needed overhead to pay for proper quality and marketing).

Doug Aurand said:
Its so apparent that you hobbyists don't understand doing this as a business, is not about the photography, its about the customer.

That is certainly one way to look at it, but you also said:

Doug Aurand said:
At this point, I've been unable to find customers who want to pay more for a virtual tour.

If you have established yourself in a cheap market, with prices in the same range as your competitors, then you will of course have a very hard time to get out of the hole you have put yourself into.

Again, let me use an example that may explain it: McDonalds has established itself in the low end of the middle class eating places. If they decided to raise the price of their "Happy Meal" from say... $4 to what a steak with salad and service at the "Ranchers Club" costs... they would not succeed at all. Simply because they have established themselves as a cheap place, and that is what people expect from them.

Of course it is "about the customer"... if we are willing to take the consequences. In my opinion, it is about the customer, but equally, it should also be about our own business and reputation building within the business.

Making one high end project to "perfection", can pay more than making 100 real-estate projects where "speed'n'cheap" is what matters... yet, it will not take 100 times the work or investment to do. More difficult to find the clients? Yes, but there are businesses out there that are willing and able to pay the price for the quality they get.

A high end restaurant can easily charge you $25 for a bottle of water, and you would accept it, yet you would never accept paying even $10 for the very same brand of water in McDonalds.

Personally, I would not take on a job of painting a house inside and outside for $200, just because the owner of said house would not be willing/able to pay more. I would walk away from such an "opportunity". I don't see why it should be any different in the panorama/photographic business.

Being paid properly for one's properly performed work, should be the natural consequence.

From some of your works Doug, I would have to say that you are charging too little for the quality you offer.

You say that your clients are not willing or able to pay more... maybe that is true, but have you tried to present them with a high quality (flawless) project where the scene has been shot with wide angle, and not fisheye (30+images) with added features, such as video and background sound inserted into the tour, and show them the same scene in your standard delivery form, where things are done fairly ok, but based on WYSIWYG? As far as I understand it, you have never done that. Maybe you should try, and see the reaction. If you could sell high end projects to high end dollars, it would be worth it. Without trying, there is no way you can get there.

All of the above is just my view, and not an argument we are having. Maybe you can even see something useful in my words. If not, then so be it. Personally, I would like you to do better... raising the standard for your own business, raising the positive numbers in your bank accounts, and also raising the quality awareness in the panorama field in your part of the woods. Getting one good job, that pays more than 20 low end jobs, with less investment, should be a positive goal to achieve.

If a person doesn't believe in positive change, then it is futile to try.

If you were approached by a big prestigious company/community, willing to pay $100.000 for a top quality tour (assuming they knew all about what quality can be produced), would you turn them down, or would you do what had to be done to meet their standards?

Turning that scenario around: If you approached the same company/community, offering them to do 6 panos in the standard 3 shot HDR works you provide, for a few hundred dollars... do you think THEY would even want to consider such an offer? (assuming they knew all about what quality can be produced).

Unless you are capable to offer a service/product.... you can forget about offering it.

If you were a car salesman, would you limit yourself to selling only one model of one brand... or would you offer every model of every brand available to you?

Personally, I am sure you COULD get high well paying projects if you started offering those, with proper examples representing your ultimate skills. But if you don't have those to offer, you are not going to get any clients in that field. Nor are clients going to request such works from you, if they can not see examples of such high end projects in your portfolio.

The above writing could be directed at everyone, and I absolutely feel "hit" by it. I haven't done anything that I would consider to be "high end" quality, compared to the works of so many people here in these forums. Mostly because I have not had the time, but also because my arsenal of photo editing programs and the needed skills and understanding in that field is at an absolute minimum.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck and prosperity Doug. If you read something different out of my words, then you are not reading them right, or maybe I have worded things badly.

Trausti

messages 1-15 of 131

Prev 1 2 3 4 5 next