Greenbarn
Posts: 15
Location: Kirkby Stephen, United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Jan 2010
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NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:08 GMT
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I'm very new to this, and have been trying to determine the NPP point using Smooth's nadir shot method. I'm getting results like this:
and I'm struggling to understand the asymmetric nature of the image, and what to adjust. I've spent hours on this!
This shot is using a Canon 40D, 10-22mm lens at 10mm, on a NN5 using the suggested arm settings. Eight shots around at 35 deg tilt. Stitched with APP.
I became suspicious about levelling; the bubble on the NN5 head moves as the head is rotated, and level according to the NN5 doesn't correspond to level according to the tripod bubble. This shot is taken using the tripod bubble, but the results are similar to using the NN5 bubble. That was my last hope theory 
Can someone explain the cause of the shape in the photo before I go completely mental?
Thanks in advance
Patrick
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Smooth
Posts: 3729
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:17 GMT
updated: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:18 GMT
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You MUST NOT re-level between shots. You only need for position 1 to be level. So long as it returns to level after a full rotation you have what you need.
Looking at your Nadir shot indicates to me you are too far forward on the upper arm.
If you make a set of images available to stitch via download I will take a look.
Regards, Smooth 
www.smooth360.info
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Greenbarn
Posts: 15
Location: Kirkby Stephen, United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Jan 2010
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:29 GMT
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Thanks Smooth.
I wasn't re-levelling between individual shots, but trying the tripod level v NN5 for different sets in desperation. I remember your tutorial being pretty clear on the not re-levelling!
I'll have another trial with moving the arm back and see how that goes, then see if I can make some images available.
Cheers
Patrick
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2760
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:47 GMT
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Patrick
Why do you not try the data from the NN Database.
For some reason they do not have the B length for the 40D but you find it in the 30D. There is no difference between Canon cameras on same lens for the upper arm.
Using Smooths method for this when you have some reasonable values is just waste of time.
Especially using autopano which does not have any control for the shift.
Canon 10-22mm
10mm Focal Length
NN3 - A=48 B=94
NN3 w/CP - A=58 B=94
NN5 w/CP - A=54 B=94
Hans
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Greg Nuspel
Posts: 13
Location: Calgary, Canada
Registered: 15 Feb 2009
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 12:54 GMT
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To me it looks like you focal length might have crept on the zoom. The head of the tripod is growing in size. Are you using manual focus? Focus changes change the image size as well and it is more pronounced closer to the lens.
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John Houghton
Posts: 3412
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 13:02 GMT
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Patrick, The levelling is irrelevant. As long as you just rotate the head around to take the shots, that's all that matters. What is clear from your image is that the lens parameters evaluated by APP appear to be hopelessly inaccurate: hence the lines of the floor tiles have a pronounced curve instead of being straight. Check the placement of the control points. You need control points on the floor tiles and none on the tripod.
You might spend 15 minutes or so checking the setup of your head using www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm . That usually gives a good enough result (without any stitching being required), but you can refine it with Smooth's method if necessary.
John
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Smooth
Posts: 3729
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 13:05 GMT
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Going back over a job I did for a client using the Canon 400D (not 40D) and 10-22mm it showed the upper arm needed to be set at 107/108mm. Which is the maximum back distance on a NN3, not an issue with the NN5. His lower arm was 51mm. This gave OSP results with PTGui Pro.
This is where I recommend you start on the upper arm 107mm.
With images I can prove what is correct.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2760
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 13:51 GMT
updated: 21 Mar 2010 at 13:55 GMT
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You are right Smooth. The 94 mm they say for the 30D is not correct.
I checked the wiki and they say 104.5 which I guess is pretty good.
But checking this only takes a minute or 2 by looking through your view finder.
I just checked my Sigma 10-20 mm and it took me less than 1 minute to find it to be 101mm. Have not used it for 4 years.
The NN database is correct here. They say 101 and 102.
The bottom rail is easy if you just make sure that your camera has a correct bottom plate. It may not be in 90 degree angle with your lens flange.
This may give you an error as large as 3mm for a lens with 100mm on the spherical arm. I have 4 Canons and only one is correct. My old 5D has 2mm error with the 15mm.
You can easy correct this with a peace of ducktape.
After this has been checked you can use the centre point in the viewfinder to adjust the bottom rail. You can never get it 100 % correct anyhow as your lens may change it up to 1 mm each time you mount it.
Even a Canon lens on a Canon 5D like the 15mm fisheye is not the same each time you mount it. Mine moves almost 1 mm.
Hans
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Greenbarn
Posts: 15
Location: Kirkby Stephen, United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Jan 2010
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 14:13 GMT
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Guys - thanks for all the input.
My original grab is using the NN5 recommended settings from the NN website of 54 and 93.
The tip about MF had me rushing off to check, but yes - I had still got the lens set for MF; I've also been very careful not to move the zoom setting when rotating.
John - I set up initially using something similar to your method (I couldn't remember where I'd seen yours, I'd looked at so much stuff!) and arrived at settings of 53 and 106, which is similar to Smooth's suggestion for 107. I was getting stitching problems, so went back to first principles, being a total beginner at pano stuff, and the NN figures had me scratching my head!
Your comment about APP's evaluation of the lens parameters is something I'm going to have to come back to you about for some understanding! I don't understand why the tile joints are curving.
The following is a grab at 107.
Now I'll go off and see if I can find a simple way to provide the images for upload.
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2760
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 14:20 GMT
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Looks to me like it could be the "standard" autopano problem with exporting the panorama cropped.
You have to make sure that your pano is not cropped but has the full equirectangular output.
There is an option somewhere in autopano for this but as default it will crop the image if you do not have a nadir.
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 3729
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 14:35 GMT
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Here is what it should look like when perfectly set up.
This is from the 400D, 10-22mm @10mm on a NN3 51mm lower 107mm Upper. 6 shots around as it the nadir clearly shows.
Do NOT wind up your center column, this makes things unstable.
When shooting the images you need to tilt just enough to capture the panohead knob. Lining up with the lower rail makes this an easy guide. See image.
Make your images available via www.yousendit.com or www.photobucket.com please avoid places that force you to wait or have browser pop-ups.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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John Houghton
Posts: 3412
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 14:38 GMT
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Greenbarn said: I was getting stitching problems
Unfortunately, stitching problems are often the result of unskilled use of stitching software rather than poor equipment setup. It's difficult for a newbie to diagnose what the true cause of stitching errors is likely to be.
John
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Greenbarn
Posts: 15
Location: Kirkby Stephen, United Kingdom
Registered: 24 Jan 2010
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2760
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 15:22 GMT
updated: 21 Mar 2010 at 15:23 GMT
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When did you get your NN5?
I just discovered that there is a new Cameraplate which ads 13mm instead of 10mm.
That means your bottom rail should be 57mm if thats what you have.
store.nodalninja.com/product_p/cp-2.htm
Hans
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Smooth
Posts: 3729
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: NPP - what's happening here?
Posted: 21 Mar 2010 at 15:26 GMT
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Patrick,
Mate, not perfect! But perfectly usable.
I deleted 3 errant control points to get this from an autostitch.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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