wco81
Posts: 32
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Registered: 17 Dec 2009
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First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 1:56 GMT
updated: 26 Dec 2009 at 2:00 GMT
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OK, thought I'd start another thread and let people have the semantics discussion in the other one.
Got the NN3 and tried it with the LX-3 and PTGUI Pro 8.6 Trial:
www.panoguide.com/gallery/1599/
So some questions:
1. How do you add the nadir and zenith? Searched the help and saw no way to do it. I did take pics of them at 90 degrees up and down. PTGUI identified them as landscape photos so I didn't include them in my set.
2. PTGUI didn't identify any control point problems. Yet, in higher resolution versions that I have locally, some things are not lined up, such as the floor tiles. Do you just manually add control points?
3. I leveled the head as best as I could, took 3 rows of 12-shots around (with the LX-3 at the 24 mm-equivalent focal length), at plus and minus 30 degrees.
What is the best way to reduce jagged edges?
4. So various areas where there's some smearing of the details, such as the grass. Not sure if it's due to the PTGUI watermark or if it's coming from the stitching/warping process.
5. Any other suggestions for improving these? More or less, I used PTGUI defaults, except the output, which I reduced so I could upload to the gallery.
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DennisS
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Location: Los Anglels, United States
Registered: 1 Sep 2007
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 5:13 GMT
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1) Just add the photos in with the current project. I usually rotate all my pictures to be in portrait mode before bringing them into PTGui. Remember that PTGui does not know rows, it only knows a bunch of pictures that it is trying to align.
2) PTGui does not point out control point problems. It only measures the distance between points after it aligns the images. Do not rely too much on the report. The maximum distance does give you an indication of how you are doing. Obviously a maximum error of 25 is way worse than a maximum error of 5. You have to look at the result and judge for yourself. You sometimes do have to add control points from time to time. Looks like the tile floor needs some additional control points.
3) Leveling the head is not necessary. Just get it close. Do not change anything during your sequence. After you get your pano to stitch, you add vertical control points in order to level out your pano.
4) Don't know
5) You get much better results when you start learning how to optomize. The default settings in PTGui work fine if everything else is absolutely perfect (which they seldom are). There is so much posted here in this forum about optomizing PTGui. The search engine will be your friend.
If you can post your individual pictures for download, you will get quicker/more accurate answers to your issues.
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Smooth
Posts: 2425
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 5:26 GMT
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wco81 said: So some questions:
1. How do you add the nadir and zenith? Searched the help and saw no way to do it. I did take pics of them at 90 degrees up and down. PTGUI identified them as landscape photos so I didn't include them in my set.
You should turn auto-rotation off within the camera menu.
You should build a PTGui .pts template in a room where you have features between every shot including Zenith and Nadir. Using coloured "Post-It" notes helps to add objects for control points where there is none. Once you have an optimised template this can be applied to all other projects/shoots and this will help position all of the images.
wco81 said: 2. PTGUI didn't identify any control point problems. Yet, in higher resolution versions that I have locally, some things are not lined up, such as the floor tiles. Do you just manually add control points?
You can add manual control points. But are we only talking Nadir or do you have other alignment stitching errors? See www.easypano.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?... and confirm your OSP and NPP. If it is because of a hand held Nadir shot you will need to learn about PTGui Pro Viewpoint Correction and how to stitch it in. See www.ptgui.com/examples/vptutorial.html
wco81 said: 3. I leveled the head as best as I could, took 3 rows of 12-shots around (with the LX-3 at the 24 mm-equivalent focal length), at plus and minus 30 degrees.
What is the best way to reduce jagged edges?
What jagged edges? Within the stitch or when being displayed? You should level up before shooting but only level once at your starting point and leave it there for the complete panorama image set. You can level your panorama in PTGui. See www.johnhpanos.com/levtut.htm
wco81 said: 4. So various areas where there's some smearing of the details, such as the grass. Not sure if it's due to the PTGUI watermark or if it's coming from the stitching/warping process.
This could be a blending issue. An alignment issue (Because of bad NPP setting) Or a Vignetting issue where you need to process and correct for this with say Adobe Camera Raw. Also you need to make sure all your images are shot in full (M) manual mode and that the Aperture, Shutter Speed, ISO and Manual White Balance stay the same for every shot. Using manual White Balance will stop the colour variation I can see in your panorama.
wco81 said: 5. Any other suggestions for improving these? More or less, I used PTGUI defaults, except the output, which I reduced so I could upload to the gallery.
Follow the advise above, practice, practice, practice, remove any control points that are on anything that is likely to have movement I.E: Clouds, Cars, People, Branches, Shadows etc.
Regards, Smooth 
www.smooth360.info
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wco81
Posts: 32
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Registered: 17 Dec 2009
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 17:29 GMT
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Thanks guys, will have to study the software more as well as those links.
Same exposure throughout, even when you're pointing at the sun vs. the shadows?
Also, photograph stickies and use those as control points and then use that set as a template?
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John Houghton
Posts: 2837
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 17:57 GMT
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Yes, keeping the exposure fixed means that the images match and the blender has a much easier time. You can see the images in the central row of your panorama become much darker when there is more sky in the images. PTGui Pro does have an exposure correction feature that can often do a good job of compensating for the exposure differences, but fixed exposure is best. You can cope with large brightness ranges by shooting sets of images at different (fixed) exposures using the bracketing feature of the camera, if available. These sets can be merged in a variety of ways, but I suggest you concentrate on stitching single sets of images initially.
Stickies are useful for blank walls where there are no features for control point assignment, whether automatic or manual. They have to be cloned out of the final panorama, of course.
When you have a really good stitch, you can use the saved project file as a template for stitching future sets of images shot in a similar manner. Just load in the new set of images and run File->Apply Template and navigate to your project file. The lens and image parameters will be copied in, but not control points. You then create control points and optimize only fov and yaw, pitch and roll for all except one image, which is used as an anchor to fix the panorama in position. Do this in the advanced optimizer tab.
John
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Smooth
Posts: 2425
Location: Mount Panorama, Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 26 Dec 2009 at 18:21 GMT
updated: 26 Dec 2009 at 18:21 GMT
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John Houghton said: You can cope with large brightness ranges by shooting sets of images at different (fixed) exposures using the bracketing feature of the camera, if available.
The latest firmware (v2.1) for the Panasonic LX3 increases the bracketing from -1ev 0 +1ev (±1 previous) to now -3ev 0 +3ev (±3). 1/3 stop selectable. Limited to 3 "auto bracketed" images.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 1792
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 27 Dec 2009 at 17:37 GMT
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wco81
That's a pretty good first attempt.
Part of the problem may be that PTGui will have trouble finding accurate control points in the overlap of 2 photos in clear blue skies and uniform surfaces like concrete walkways. Grass provides too many possible control point matches, so PTGui may select points in the 2 overlapping photos that aren't actually the same point.
Removing or moving some of these questionable control points manually will help with the small misalignments you're seeing.
Good luck
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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wco81
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Registered: 17 Dec 2009
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 3 Jan 2010 at 21:12 GMT
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Regarding taking pictures in places with a lot of people, does a fisheye make it easier to deal with moving people because it requires fewer shots to capture everything?
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DennisS
Posts: 351
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Registered: 1 Sep 2007
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 3 Jan 2010 at 22:29 GMT
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It is not the lens or the number of shots, it is more about your technique. Sure, 4 shots around with a Sigma 8mm is easier than 6 around with a Nikon 10.5, but great results can be had with either.
I found that when shooting panos with lots of moving people, you need to take several shots at each position. Watch the edges of the area in the picture. It becomes easy to see when the edge is clear or you have enough photos to produce a good pano. You will need to use Photoshop to mask out people parts.
www.dlsphoto.net/Europe2009/London/Busy_Street_Co... I made the mistake of putting a seam right through the front door where all the people are coming in and out of the store. It is not a matter of quickness. Watch the crowd movement and take lots of pictures at each position.
In a crowd where people do not move around too much, you will still need to mask out floating body parts and such.
www.dlsphoto.net/Europe2009/Paris/Tour_de_France_... People were not walking, just moving alot as they watched the racers go by. This one took me all day just to do the masking prior to stitching.
Photoshop will become your friend when shooting panos with people in them. Practice, practice and more practice will yield good results. Panos are much more interesting with people in them.
This is my favorite crowd pano.
www.bohonus.com/pages/open_fsvr.php?vr=playoffs5
This was done with a Nikon 10.5. 6 shots around, 1 up and 1 down. You can see from the big screen monitors at the end of each end zone that time had elapsed from when he took the shot of the players and he took the shots of each end zone. Timing is not as important as technique. Brandford told me that this was Photoshop Hell for him. The end result speaks for itself.
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Trausti
[Flashificator]
Posts: 643
Location: Lima, Peru
Registered: 30 Jul 2009
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 3 Jan 2010 at 22:29 GMT
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wco81 said: Regarding taking pictures in places with a lot of people, does a fisheye make it easier to deal with moving people because it requires fewer shots to capture everything?
Absolutely.
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Doug Aurand
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 4 Jan 2010 at 15:29 GMT
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wco81
Yes, the bigger the Field of View, the easier it is to shoot a scene with moving people, cars, etc
With 6 shots around horizontal like a Nikkor 10.5mm on a cropped sensor needs, there are 6 overlapping seams that will have potential problems of people who moved from one shot to the next.
With 4 shots around like a Sigma 8mm on a cropped sensor, there are only 4 seams, so their are fewer problem overlapping areas.
I've shot thousands of virtual images over the past 10 years using a 2 fisheye capture. With the Nikon FC-E8 or E9 fisheye convertor on my Nikon Coolpix cameras I get a circular image with a FoV of 183° in all directions. So there's only one continuous seam, which will have a problem on both sides of the seams.
I also have the outrageously Coastal Optics 4.88mm which can do a 2 fisheye capture on a dSLR with a cropped sensor and its great for scenes with a lot of movement going on.
With just 2 fisheyes shots needed, I can visualize where the seam will be on both sides and wait for no one to be on the seam and take the shot, rotate and wait for clear seams again and shoot again.
That way I have little or no touch up.
The big drawback to the wider and wider lenses used on the same camera, is you're using less and less of the sensor, so you're sacrificing resolution for fewer shots and seams. I haven't found it significant for use on the Web. My on a Canon XTi, my Sigma 8mm does a maximum of just over 8000x4000 pixels for the Equirectangular Projection from PTGui. On the same camera, my CO 4.88mm can do a little over 5000x2500.
On a compact camera like the Coolpixes with the Nikon Fisheye Convertors, there is a loss of sharpness partly due to the lens setup and partly due to the tiny sensors compact cameras have.
Hope that helps
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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wco81
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Registered: 17 Dec 2009
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 5 Jan 2010 at 3:26 GMT
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Don't a lot of FE lenses have close to 180-degrees FOV?
Yet you do up to 6 shots to go all the way around?
Does having more overlaps like that give better results, even if you have to deal with more seams than it appears necessary to this novice?
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Smooth
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 5 Jan 2010 at 7:12 GMT
updated: 5 Jan 2010 at 7:13 GMT
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wco81 said: Don't a lot of FE lenses have close to 180-degrees FOV?
It's not quite as simple as it would appear.
180 degrees fisheye (180x180) can be circular or fullframe where the fullframe is 180 degrees on the diagonal only.
For example a Sigma 8mm Fisheye is a full circular fisheye but only on a full size sensor SLR 36x24mm (Canon 5D, Nikon D700) on a smaller APS-C/DX sensor (Canon 500D, Nikon D300) it is basically only 180 degrees vertically and cropped horizontally short on the edges to around 140 degrees.
Upshot: Sigma 8mm Fisheye
Full size sensor you need minimum of 2 shots (at a stretch) with the normal being 3 shots in rotation.
APS-C/DX sensor you need a minimum of 3 shots with 60 degree oblique angle with normal being 4 shots in rotation.
Your next common alternative is the fullframe fisheye like the Nikkor 10.5mm Fisheye it is a purpose designed APS-C/DX lens designed for the small sensor DSLR. This is a 180 degree diagonal fisheye and requires 6 shots around and also a zenith shot.
Just to add to the confusion most APS-C/DX fullframe fisheye lenses such as the Nikkor 10.5mm, Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye, Samyang 8mm, Sigma 10mm etc can have their sunshade/hood/petals shaved off and then used on a full size sensor 36x24mm DSLR and give a huge FOV advantage.
With small "point 'n' shoot" cameras there are purpose designed 180+ degree fisheye lenses such as the Nikon FC-E8, FC-E9, Raynox 187PRO, Soligor etc. These are of little use to DSLR but fit the bill for "point 'n' shoot" cameras. Typically because these are 180+ FOV you only ever need 2 shots back to back to complete the sphere. But, it is still recommended that you shoot 3 shots 120 degrees click stops to get better overlap and use the sharper centre of the fisheye image.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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wco81
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 7 Jan 2010 at 3:18 GMT
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OK, I guess those options beat taking 12 shots around with my LX-3 and the stock lens.
Does the pano preserve the EXIF data?
I geotag so if the EXIFs of the individual shots have GPS coordinates, does the resulting pano out of PTGUI keep the GPS coordinates?
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Smooth
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Re: First pano, with some questions
Posted: 7 Jan 2010 at 3:28 GMT
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wco81 said: OK, I guess those options beat taking 12 shots around with my LX-3 and the stock lens.
We covered the best way to reduce shots in your original thread using the LX3 www.panoguide.com/forums/qna/7170/
wco81 said: Does the pano preserve the EXIF data?
I geotag so if the EXIFs of the individual shots have GPS coordinates, does the resulting pano out of PTGUI keep the GPS coordinates?
The answer is no, but using Geotag you can copy the EXIF data from one of the images used for stitching the panorama and apply it to the completed stitched panorama image. I do it all the time.
Can I ask how your are getting GPS coordinates with the Panasonic LX3 in the first place? If you are just manually adding it yourself I don't see any difference.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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