Tim Rain
Posts: 9
Location:
Registered: 28 Jun 2009
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Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 5:12 GMT
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Hey Guys. We are looking at starting a company that advertises motor vehicles online. During an initial discussion on how to better the competition, the idea of virtual panorama came up. After performing research on the subject we have been unable to come up with any concrete information on how to complete the task. With so much outdated information, third party companies and every software company claiming there the best.
Basically the website will allow both private advertisers and dealerships to use the service. Initially the virtual panorama will only be available to the dealerships as an option to advertise there used car inventory. This means we would be creating 100's if not 1000's of these panoramas on a weekly basis. So being able to create them quickly is critical. I must also stress this is a task we want our own staff to perform. No contracts.
What were after is two views of the cars, the interior and the exterior. The examples below are exactly what where after.
Interior
www.mazda.com.au/Models/Current%20models/RX-8/Fea...
Exterior
www.mazda.com.au/Models/Current%20models/RX-8/Fea...
Where on square on here, pretend we know virtually nothing on the topic
Equipment? what do we use? we gathered you take various images and "stitch" them together? correct? or is there and easier way? what do you use to take these images? digital camera and tripod? or something else?
Software? initially we thought you'd take a couple of images load flash cs4 and somehow it would do the rest for you (well we wished) or does it? or is there another program that does this? what do the professionals use?
Format? flash, QuickTime, java, other? The panoramas will be of similar size to those in the examples linked above. They need to be able to load quickly but be of decent quality, To cater for a variety of internet speeds (we found the above examples satisfactory in both regards). We want to be able to handle the finished product like you would uploading a flash movie to your website.
As you've probably gathered we need a comprehensive run down on the subject. from equipment, software, format etc?
We appreciate any information provided, and apologise if this has been previously discussed (direct us).
Cheers in Advance
Tim
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michael medina
Posts: 385
Location: portland, oregon, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2008
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 6:18 GMT
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i understand your confusion, but in just a short bit of searching you could have most of your answers and i'll leave that to you to do.
the images you link are professionally photographed images. unless you have a staff of 5-50 professional photographers familiar with both interior and exterior car lighting and photography, i don't expect you will be able to produce hundreds if not thousands of these a week. typically you could expect a hard working, fast working photographer to be able to produce about 20 of these a week, barring any problems, 10-12 would be more likely.
as far as format you need to consult with a web developer who is familiar with internet content to make that decision. there are good viewers for each format, your web developer should help in that decision.
the only other options you may have are 'one shot' images from parabolic mirrors (or some shape like that) and those are very low quality and won't produce results anywhere near what you linked to.
it's a good idea, however unless you have some good photographers at your disposal or a large budget, i don't think you want to spend your budget on photography.
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badders
Posts: 384
Location: East Kilbride, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Dec 2007
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 8:10 GMT
updated: 28 Jun 2009 at 8:11 GMT
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Hi Tim,
Curiously this is exactly what we're doing for a UK company next week. We are providing them with hardware and software plus training so they can produce their own images. The difference is the images won't be shot in a studio or on a turntable. The vehicles will however be in a small well lit room with white walls and good diffused overall lighting
The kit:
Nikon D90 DSLR with Sigma 8mm f/3.5 fisheye lens
"Nodal Ninja" Ultimate R10 Panoramic Head
Seitz VR Drive with electronic shutter release
Manfrotto 190XPROB Tripod (also testing a window suction mount)
Software:
AutoPano Giga
Pano2VR
The images will be stitched from 4 x shots and output as both Flash (.swf) and QuickTime QTVR (.mov). The image size will be around 500-600Kb at a resolution of 3200 x 1600.
Hope that helps!
Andrew Baddeley
www.360tacticalvr.com
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Tim Rain
Posts: 9
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Registered: 28 Jun 2009
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 11:26 GMT
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Sorry guys, the examples i posted are just to show you the type of movement and view range where after. We don't intend to shoot the vehicles in a studio or on a turntable either. The thought was just to pull the vehicle into and empty space and photograph them there.
Andrew thanks for the advice, do you have any examples of the panorama you've created. We'd be very interested in seing them.
Cheers, Tim
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stalwart
Posts: 280
Location: Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Registered: 20 Dec 2007
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Tim Rain
Posts: 9
Location:
Registered: 28 Jun 2009
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 12:37 GMT
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Both of the examples above are the kind of thing were chasing. We noticed in all car interior panorama that the windows are white. I just thought it was because they where shot in studio. But if you say this was shot outdoors, were the windows covered in white? the images manipulated in Photoshop or similar? or is panorama software capable of this. Another thing we've notice is that in alot of landscape panorama (not all) when you look at the feet of the camera there’s a black spot or logo, obviously where the tripod was. This is not apparent in car interior panoramas, is this the result of image editing before creating a panorama?
Anyway we will have a play around with Autopano and Pano2VR tomorrow and see what results we come up with.
One thing where keen on seeing is an example of a panorama where the camera rotates around the car. Like in the first link i posted, but outdoors. Or is this something you could only achieve in a studio on a turntable.
Cheers
Tim
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Vilmer
Posts: 445
Location: Argentina
Registered: 23 May 2007
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 13:22 GMT
updated: 28 Jun 2009 at 13:22 GMT
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Tim, if you are really going to shoot that much cars, you (or the car dealer) will need to install one of these:
And for the interior it's best to stick you camera through one of the side windows and shoot it horizontally instead of vertically on a tripod inside the car to minimize the post photoshop work.
If you are going to do hundreds or thousands per week, I guess you need to outsource. I happen to know a guy in Argentina who has some fee time  , but for 1 person to do more that 4 per day, interior and exterior, is impossible imho.
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stalwart
Posts: 280
Location: Barton under Needwood, Staffordshire, United Kingdom
Registered: 20 Dec 2007
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 28 Jun 2009 at 13:23 GMT
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Tim,
The windows are white due to extensive work in Photoshop.
A tripod cap is a much easier, quicker (and therefore cheaper) way of hiding the tripod. To get rid of the tripod, one usually takes a separate shot of the down shot (nadir) and patch it in either in Photoshop, or viewpoint correction in PTGui or patch in pano2vr softwares (there are other Photoshop plug-ins).
There is no 'quick-fix' to doing a full 360x180 panorama without the tripod.
Judging by your requirement to photograph ‘100’s if not 1,000’s of panos per week’ by the dealers themselves, then equipment something along the line that Andy (Badders) is suggesting would be great, but perhaps too ‘top-end’.
If this is for standard, medium-cost family cars that will have a quick dealership turnaround, perhaps a ‘one-shot’ lens setup would be a cheaper alternative, simpler to set up and use by dealerships? The downside is they only have a limited field of view (FOV – the ‘up-down’ view) of around 110 degrees, therefore you wouldn’t be able to look all the way up (the roof lining) or all the way down…….
The compromise is always going to be ease of use of the equipment by (no disrespect) laymen, cost of equipment, shelf-life of output, intended audience, volume, ease and speed of processing output, etc.
Stu
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Tim Rain
Posts: 9
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Registered: 28 Jun 2009
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 0:25 GMT
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Thanks for your input guys, it sounds like there’s a reason no one else has ventured into a project on this scale for a reason (none that i know of). The web developers assured us they could upload something like this on the website, but as for creating it, they seemed to have as much idea as we did and certainly had no idea of the simplest and best way. That’s why we thought it best to ask people involved in this type of thing. And you guys have already given us multiple avenues to explore.
We will explore the turntable further. But we couldn't possibly bring all the dealerships vehicles to a single location, or even multiple locations. Convincing a dealership to install a turntable for this purpose seems unlikely. The only other option would to have a turntable that came to them.
But Due to the time frame you guys are suggesting, We think the easiest (and only) way to create the figures that we've forecast is to have the dealerships create the panoramas themselves. We simply couldn’t cover it. We don’t think they will be against acquiring and learning how to use the equipment if it sells cars (and we think it will). Hopefully the dealerships not willing to create the panoramas themselves will be few enough for us to cover.
So assuming there not willing to install a turntable. Is there any way at all to re-create an exterior view. Perhaps we would have to venture out of panorama, like a video that pans around the car that you could drag back and forward like controlling a panorama?
As for the one shot lenses, we considered it, and looked at examples. But our theory is, if your not going to create it properly don’t create it at all. Because someone will simply come along and better you.
Tim
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mskp
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Registered: 19 Oct 2006
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tturner
Posts: 214
Location: Dallas,TX, United States
Registered: 28 May 2006
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 3:22 GMT
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Tim Rain said: But our theory is, if your not going to create it properly don’t create it at all. Because someone will simply come along and better you.
Tim
Tim,
Don't know your entire product pitch per car but the panorama I would think is the hardest part to create. Will the dealers really be able to shoot and stitch a quality panorama to give to you. If they could pull it off then they could just put it on their own site. I guess what I am getting at is if you train your client to do your job than why do they need you.
Here is a link to a demo I did a few months ago.
www.turnerimaging.com/mazdapano.htm
Total time for shoot, process, stitch and publish was close to 3 hours and I am not that happy with the end result. Will do again when time allows.
I wish you the best of luck in you venture.
TTurner
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Tim Rain
Posts: 9
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Registered: 28 Jun 2009
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 6:08 GMT
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A very valid point, we had thought of a couple of ways or offers to stop them using the panorama's they created elsewhere. We had a rough play around with some programs and are confident in recreating interior panoramas with relative ease after some practice (at least we know its actually achievable). Unfortunately were still no closer to doing an object panorama (or exterior view) without the use of a turntable. Which we consider critical to make this work.
We don’t think it would be beyond a dealerships to learn how to make a sufficient panorama. As for your example we couldn't notice anything out of the ordinary, so neither would the general public. In fact it was very good and would be more then satisfactory for what we have planned.
Cheers
Tim
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mediavets
Posts: 1948
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 7:33 GMT
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Tim Rain said: We don’t think it would be beyond a dealerships to learn how to make a sufficient panorama.
Cheers
Tim
Good luck to you - I think this is wishful thinking.
Did you even price up the set of equipment that Andrew B suggested - and that's not taking into account any time/cost of learning how to use it.
IMO your project - as you envisage it - is simply not viable, neither technically nor financially.
Dunno what life is like where you are, but here in the UK car sales have fallen through the floor in recent months and there's seems little prospect of much change in the near future. That's because people are reluctant to spend and find it very difficult to borrow money even if they do wish to spend - an interior pano and an object movie is not gonna change that.
Andrew
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 3282
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 13:34 GMT
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Andew
With the slower sales, dealers are spending more money to bring in customer.
In 2007 homes were still selling so well, my virtual tour business had dropped by half. The thinking of the Realtors was that the homes would sell themselves without any extra adversting tools.
So far this year my business is up about 25% with much slower home sales.
I think Tim has the right idea but 360° images just don't shoot & process fast enough to do what he wants.
The key really isn't the media being used, its how many cars they can get all on one website. Realtor.com has more homes than the local RE company websites and is better known, that's why it gets massively more traffic than the local sites.
If Tim can create a "Multiple Listing Service" for cars in his area, I think he may have a winner. Generally speaking, the more product the buyers want that are on one site, the more buyers that will visit the site.
The 360° Images and Object Movies aren't really necessary, just a ton of auto inventory with 5 to 10 photos each would do the job
Good luck Tim
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Jorgen Poulsen
Posts: 227
Location: France
Registered: 30 Apr 2008
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Re: Company Planning, Virtual Panorama, Newbies
Posted: 29 Jun 2009 at 14:04 GMT
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I agree with Doug.
I can't see that 360 degree images add a lot of value compared to a bunch of photos.
Perhaps I'm missing something.
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