Hurley
Posts: 8
Location: Canada
Registered: 8 Oct 2008
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I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 1:17 GMT
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I've tried over and over again but I just can't get a seamlessly stitched panorama. I've tried taking more shots for more overlap of the areas where I get the seams, I've tried changing the tilt of the zenith shots to get better overlap... but nothing has worked. I don't know what else to do.
Here is my setup & software:
Nikon D80 w/ 10.5mm fisheye.
NN3 pano head
Adobe Camera RAW
PTgui 7.8
Enfuse Auto droplets
The D80 is mounted on the Nodal Ninja using the figures from the Nodal Ninja website, so I don't think that parallax errors or an incorrect nodal point are the issue.
Here is my workflow:
Shoot 3 bracketed RAWs.
6 around (-10 tilt) and 1 zenith.
RAWs --> 8bit TIFFS in Camera RAW
Enfuse the 3 bracketed TIFFS
Open the 7 (6 + 1) images in PTgui, click on 'Align images', go to the 'Exposure/HDR' tab and click 'Optimize Now' for auto exposure and color adjustments, then I go to 'Optimizer' tab and click on 'Run Optimizer', then I go to 'Control Points' tab and manually remove CPs with large distance value so that Min. Distance is less than 0.3 and Max Distance is less than 7, then I configure the 'Create Panorama' settings to 5000x2500 equi at 83%), then I click on 'Create Panorama'-->
Here is the BEST result I can get:
Here is another one where the seams are MORE obvious:
If you look carefully at the mouldings, you'll see at least 5-6 seams (some are obvious, some are minor)
The resulting panorama ALWAYS has seams. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
I've tried shooting the zenith at +90 and +60 (for more overlap with the area below) and either way, I end up with stitching errors where the walls meet the ceiling. The errors are always at the seams of each of the 6 pictures (the bottom and the middle of the panorama stitch just fine, only the top is where I get seams).
I don't know what I'm missing or doing wrong that is keeping me from making the same high-quality, seamless panoramas that other members on here can make.
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mskp
Posts: 164
Location:
Registered: 19 Oct 2006
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 2:04 GMT
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Hi, Hurley!
Welcome! I have almost the same setup, except that I also have a Manfrotto quick release at the upper rail and that makes my lower rail settings different. My upper rail is set at 82.5 and my lower rail at 7 (in this case remember the quick release).
Follow the tutorial from John Houghton to find out the correct NPP. You can find the link to it at the same page.
Don´t desperate, even with the right settings you sometimes can have some errors, which can be fixed easily in Photoshop or setting some Control Points manually in PtGui. In my first steps I went to fast thru the shooting process and did not adjust the vertical rail taking the zenith shot, which of course produced some stitching errors.
Good luck and keep on trying. You will find the "point".
Regards, Martin
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DennisS
Posts: 56
Location: Los Anglels, United States
Registered: 1 Sep 2007
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 2:20 GMT
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Hurley,
Here is a couple of things I do when I get this same error. First off make sure you have a good starting point. Get your camera positioned correctly left/right on your pano head (as well as for/aft). This is usually my issue. In PTGui, go to the "Lens Settings" tab and in the "Use individual parameters for:" box, put a check mark in all the boxes for every image. If this does not work, I usually delete all the control points at the offending seam and manually insert them vertically along the edges of the two pictures. This usually takes care of it, at least for me.
I am sure there will be many more suggestions coming.
Dennis
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michael medina
Posts: 297
Location: portland, oregon, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 6:18 GMT
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try checking horizontal and vertical shift in the advanced optimizer settings
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Sam Rohn
Posts: 66
Location: Brooklyn, New York, United States
Registered: 5 Mar 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 7:23 GMT
updated: 8 Oct 2008 at 7:24 GMT
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also try choosing Minimize Lens Distortion: Heavy + lens shift in Optimizer
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John Houghton
Posts: 2317
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 8:17 GMT
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The general spread of control points is important in order that the lens parameters can be accurately evaluated by the optimizer. You need points along the whole length of the overlap areas, not bunched in the middle. Therefore check the placement of the control points and make good any defficiencies by adding points manually. You may find it very difficult to find clear features to put points on in large expanses of blank walls and ceiling. Some people stick postit notes with crosses on in strategic positions to provide extra features for control points. Then clone them out of the final panorama. A better solution may be to calibrate the lens by shooting a panorama in a large venue that has a plentiful supply of features for control points in all directions. After producing a successful stitch, you can then use the saved project file as a template for similar sets of images. You load a new set of images into PTGui and then use File->Apply Template to copy in the lens and image parameters. You then don't need to assign so many control points nor is the spread so important since the lens parameters are now known. Include lens parameters fov and d & e in the optimization, but not a,b,c.
John
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irieman
Posts: 154
Location: East Sussex, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Jul 2006
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 9:11 GMT
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Ditto previous posts BUT pay special attention to getting an even spread of cp's and get your max distance below 2 - as a general rule 7 is too much. Some users suggest going until you get the "too good to be true" message, but if you have deleted that many cp's ensure that there is still a spread top to bottom and z and n.
Having just had a look at your family room pano in Pano Previewer it does strike me that as the fault is only at the top of each seam there may be misalignment of the head or camera positioning on it. I'm not a NN user so have no knowledge of the product or the problems that can occur, but I think that you might want to look at that again.
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 866
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 8 Oct 2008 at 9:34 GMT
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Yes errors like this will easy happen if you have not mounted the camera perfect on the spherical arm.
How important this is is not explained on the NodalNinja page.
You may easy have 1-2 degrees error if you have just mounted the camera by eye sight. And then the zenith is not in NPP.
The 10.5mm is sensitive to this because of the special distortion at the periferal areas.
Use a leveller or any sort of 90 degree angle like a creditcard to mount it.
Like this
If you have a new NodaNinja there is a cameraplate which makes it easy to mount the camera correct each time as long as you leave the plate on the camera.
Hans
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Hurley
Posts: 8
Location: Canada
Registered: 8 Oct 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 13 Oct 2008 at 22:27 GMT
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I've solved 99% of my stitching problem using the suggestions and advice you guys offered. Thanks to everyone who helped me. I appreciate & respect you guys immensely for your experience and your willingness and openness in sharing it with newbies like me.
Specifically, here is what worked for me:
1. My upper and lower rails settings were WAY off. I was using the rail settings recommended on the NN3 site for my Camera and Lens combo (with the Camera Plate). Because these settings were straight from the NN3 site, I took them as being correct, so I didn't think that parallax was an issue. Because of this, I tried everything that you guys recommended EXCEPT actually physically determining the NPP myself. Nothing worked. So then I finally went thru the process of finding 'the point' using John Houghton's tutorial referred to above, and VIOLA!... 95% of my stitching errors were fixed just by finding the correct NPP.
2. Taking panos of large rooms or outside, and creating manual CPs and taking the BEST pano I can make and saving it as a template in order to apply the same Lens Settings to OTHER panos. As John advised, I deselect a,b,c when optimizing (otherwise the template would be pointless).
Usually at this point, I have a pano that has only 1-2 VERY minor seams, which can be corrected for the most part using the other suggestions:
3. Optimizing with GLOBAL lens shift or INDIVIDUAL lens shift to see which gives the better result. These settings can be found in the Lens Settings tab and the Optimizer tab.
I have not gotten to the point where I can simply import images, AUTO generate CPs, apply template, optimize, and then create a SEAMLESS panorama. Am I trying to achieve the impossible?
I think what limits me from being able to 'auto' create a seamless panorama is when I shoot in a carpeted room, the weight shift from the camera once I've rotated it slightly changes the level reading on the NN3. This is because the carpet 'gives' to the change in the 'center of mass' of my whole setup as the camera position is rotated. So basically, the NPP is not in the same 3-dimensional space within the room from shot-to-shot.
At least this is what I think might be going on...
Regardless, I'm at the point now where the stitching quality of my panos is near seamless and I have you guys to thank for it. Thank-you!
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 789
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 13 Oct 2008 at 23:20 GMT
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Hurley
I've used to have the same problem with the tripod & camera moving a little as I rotated.
It was completely eliminated with a 10lbs barbell, a short piece of chain and a couple "s" hooks.
With that hanging on the tripod, its rock sold, even on the most thickly padded carpet
Doug Aurand
www.VirtualAlbuquerque.com
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michael medina
Posts: 297
Location: portland, oregon, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 13 Oct 2008 at 23:57 GMT
updated: 13 Oct 2008 at 23:58 GMT
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hurly, you don't even need a template to get it seamless, i simply hit the align button 3 times, optimize with shift, arbitrarily delete points greater than or equal to 2, go in and add one point to the top and one to the bottom of each set which doesn't have sufficient coverage, level it and it's nearly always seamless, the only 'manual' part of the process is the control points i add at the top and bottom which is usually not even necessary in most cases and usually only means about 12 manual points at most.
i just did this with all the 61 vr's i just posted - without a template, and only had one issue where i bumped the tripod before the zenith (in which case a template wouldn't work either) in retrospect, i think i could have used viewpoint correction on that zenith i knocked off.
i don't know that a template will even work with a NN, it will with a 360p this could be why you still have a dropped stitch or two.
mmm
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John Houghton
Posts: 2317
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 14 Oct 2008 at 6:55 GMT
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Hurley said: I have not gotten to the point where I can simply import images, AUTO generate CPs, apply template, optimize, and then create a SEAMLESS panorama.
You always need to review the results from the optimize operation. Not all the control points will be accurately placed by PTGui. I suggest you set the number of points to be generated per seam to be 20-30 via the Options menu. Assuming the lens parameters copied in from the template are good, then after optimizing you can use the option on the Control Points menu to to delete the worst points. Then re-run the optimizer. Then go to the Control Points table and delete points with distances greater than 3. Optimize again. That should generally give a good stitch, and using Smartblend will minimize minor stitching errors. But as you say, movement of the tripod on a carpeted base may well cause problems.
John
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Hurley
Posts: 8
Location: Canada
Registered: 8 Oct 2008
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 19 Oct 2008 at 18:09 GMT
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Hanging a weight from the tripod is a great idea Doug. I will use it whenever I am shooting on carpet.
As per John's advice on templates, I went to my local school gym (open area with lots of detail), shot a pano, and used it to create my template. But at the point I'm at right now, I have not been able to create an accurate template. Currently, the stitching results are unpredictable when I apply my template to a pano. Sometimes, the template decreases or eliminates minor stitching errors (even errors after I've aligned twice, optimized, deleted CPs, and reoptimized). Other times, the template will screw up the stitching completely, giving CP distances in the 100's! So at the moment, I have about 3-4 templates that I try and I use whichever one gives me the best result.
About 50% of the time, I can get a pano that has no visible stiching errors without even having to apply a template or setting any manual CPs. In this case, I think any stitching errors that DO exist are probably in areas with no or little detail and therefore aren't visible.
When I first posted, I was trying to create seamless panoramas EVERYTIME without having to enter ANY manual CPs myself. I realize now that this is nearly impossible.
The best thing is this: Thanks to everybody's contributions here, I am at a point now where if I wanted or needed to, I HAVE the ABILITY to create a seamless panorama from top to bottom.
Thanks to ALL OF YOU for helping me get there!
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John Houghton
Posts: 2317
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 19 Oct 2008 at 20:31 GMT
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I can't help thinking you are doing something fundamentally wrong. A good template cannot screw up the stitching completely without you doing something entirely inappropriate. "Aligned twice" is also an odd remark, since you should not be running the align option when using a template, as that destroys the calibrated lens parameters.
John
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Skridlov
Posts: 158
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: I can't get rid of stiching errors where walls meet ceiling
Posted: 20 Oct 2008 at 16:59 GMT
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Hurley
relative newcomer here and you're already getting advice from real experts, but...
I also found that the NPP position for the 10.5 FE/NN3 (my camera is a D200) was substantially different from the "advertised" suggestions. I'm not near it now so I can't quote my figures.
The biggest problem I had, which John diagnosed for me - it was driving me nuts - was that I was sometimes rotating the zenth and nadir shots (I am using the viewpoint correction method for nadirs - 2 X -90 and one VPC offset) to make the manual cp placement easier. At the same time I was shooting with the orientation flag automatically set in the camera/metadata. Of course for the +/- 90 shots this flag was being set more or less randomly. This caused PTGui big headaches and meant that some projects just wouldn't stitch properly... but not all.
Well, I guess you may not be as slow to learn as myself but that was my experience, and I offer it for what it's worth. Probably not a lot!
Roy
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