Tri3
Posts: 44
Location: Austin, Texas, United States
Registered: 14 Sep 2008
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Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 15:25 GMT
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I am just wondering if anyone is going to pick up the Nodal Ninja 180 for doing stuff like Real Estate panos? It looks like a pretty easy setup.
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mediavets
Posts: 475
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 16:18 GMT
updated: 30 Sep 2008 at 16:21 GMT
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It's not for me because you have to mount the camera in landscape orientation which does not make sense when using a Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE lens on a cropped sensor DSLR.
I'd rather take 4 shots using my NN5 head and Sigma 8mm FE, and get a higher resolution output, than 3 shots with a NN180 and, say, a Sigma 4.5mm FE.
If I only wanted a pano head for shooting real estate 360x180 panos for a living with my Nikon cropped sensor DSLR and Sigma 8mm FE I'd probably choose a 360Precision Atome.
It appears that the NN180 is really only useful for camera/lens setups that produce a full circular FE image - that is if one wants to achieve close to 360x180 coverage.
Even if one was content with a cylindrical pano then having to mount the camera in landscape orientation is not that useful.
To me the NN180 looks rather like a solution looking for a problem. Why does it appeal to you?
Andrew
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]
Posts: 289
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 17:10 GMT
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mediavets said: To me the NN180 looks rather like a solution looking for a problem.
Andrew
NN180 is a solution for existing problem. Otherwise I won't develop it. 
For spherical pano, it works for lens and camera combination with 180 deg angle of view, such as 8mm fisheye on full frame, 4.5mm, 5.6mm fisheye on APS-C. It works very well for long fisheye converters like FC-E9 and Raynox CF-185Pro on long prosumer DCs. Conventionally, cameras are mounted in landscape orientation for circular fisheye lens. I can't see the problem here.
At $179.95, you can't beat its price.
nick
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mediavets
Posts: 475
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 17:34 GMT
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Nick Fan said: mediavets said: To me the NN180 looks rather like a solution looking for a problem.
Andrew
NN180 is a solution for existing problem. Otherwise I won't develop it.
For spherical pano, it works for lens and camera combination with 180 deg angle of view, such as 8mm fisheye on full frame, 4.5mm, 5.6mm fisheye on APS-C. It works very well for long fisheye converters like FC-E9 and Raynox CF-185Pro on long prosumer DCs. Conventionally, cameras are mounted in landscape orientation for circular fisheye lens. I can't see the problem here.
At $179.95, you can't beat its price.
nick
Nick
I understand that is the purpose of the NN180 - I just don't see why anyone would choose to use a FE lens that produces full circular FE images on a cropped sensor DSLR (such as the Sigma 4.5mm or the Sunex) when they could use a fullframe FE or the (less expensive) Sigma 8mm f3.5 and get much higher res output for just a few more shots with the NN3/5.
Even with a fullframe sensor DSLR I would opt for a fullframe FE over a circular FE every time.
The NN180 price is competitive I agree but one really needs a small tilt to achieve adequate zenith coverage/blending with a 180 degree FOV FE and AFAIK the NN180 does not provide that.
There were solutions for the FC-E9 and Raynox CF-185Pro on prosumer DCs available before the NN180, but I'm not sure many use them now.
Andrew
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Bill Bailey
[NodalNinja]
Posts: 419
Location: Phoenix in the Arizona Desert, United States
Registered: 27 Jan 2005
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 22:00 GMT
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NN180 is just this week hitting the market so feedback at this point is nil from a consumer standpoint.
Remember - if you are not completely satisfied, for any reason, not only can you return it within 30 days for a refund but because of your uncertainty I will even refund the shipping charges AND reimburse your cost to send back. So you are out of pocket $0. Just mention this thread when ordering.
Cheers
Bill
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 789
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 22:39 GMT
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Andrew
With the much higher resolution sensors, the difference between images made from a Full Circular Fisheye and a an older Cropped sensor is really hard to see.
Example: A Sigma 8mm used on both a Canon XT/400D (cropped 8mp) and the new Canon 5D (Full Frame 21MP) which would have full circular image, would produce stitched images that would be hard to tell apart using the even the large display size Panoguide has for the Gallery
And with enough overlap and the right software, 2 fisheyes are sooooooo easy to stitch!
This is a link to a scene stitched with just 2 circular fisheyes taken with a 6.3MP DSLR.
geoimages.berkeley.edu/worldwidepanorama/wwp608/h...
Shocking to some.....it was stitched with iPIX!!!
I'm not used to working with as large a stitched image as you are, but even full screen, it looks pretty good to me 
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Bradford Bohonus
Posts: 80
Location: United States
Registered: 29 Jan 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 30 Sep 2008 at 23:52 GMT
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mediavets said: It's not for me because you have to mount the camera in landscape orientation which does not make sense when using a Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE lens on a cropped sensor DSLR.
You don't have to mount the camera that way (landscape) if you use an L-Bracket.
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]
Posts: 289
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 3:52 GMT
updated: 1 Oct 2008 at 3:56 GMT
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mediavets said: I understand that is the purpose of the NN180 - I just don't see why anyone would choose to use a FE lens that produces full circular FE images on a cropped sensor DSLR (such as the Sigma 4.5mm or the Sunex) when they could use a fullframe FE or the (less expensive) Sigma 8mm f3.5 and get much higher res output for just a few more shots with the NN3/5.
This is like asking why people opt for a 8mm fisheye over 15/16mm fisheye on full frame. They get higher resolution. And you know the sigma 15mm fisheye is a lot cheaper than the 8mm version. Also, a lot of people buy a fisheye (esp the circular one) not for pano making. They are not aware of VR pano. They just want the "feel" of the "fishy" image. Now, what if tomorrow, they see a beautiful VR spherical pano on the net? 
I am sure Sigma and Sunex have done more market research than I. Let's not worry about the market.
Wim has shown the possibility of 2 shot stitch from sigma 8mm on full frame in the tricks&tips forum.
www.panoguide.com/forums/tipsntricks/5296/
The FC-e8,E9, CF-185 may belong to the past. But people are not throwing them away. That means the market is still there. There have been a huge amount of DCs/DSLRs produced since the digital age. Many of them are still working fine. NN180 may bring new life to them. Unlike many other previous solution from other manufactuer, NN180 is universal and upgradable. The rotator will work for other NNs. It is the rotator for our next generation NN Ultimate ring model as well. One can use an L-bracket to mount the camera in portrait mode. I am not suggesting people to buy NN180+L-bracket instead of buying NN3/5 or our Ultimate ring model. The fact is many people have L-bracket already. And many are going to buy one for other purposes.
Instead of a solution looking for problem, it is a long waited solution for existing problem. NN180 will help people make better use of existing equipment. So NN180 is a solution for the past, present and the future.
nick
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Terrywoodenpic
Posts: 84
Location: Saddleworth, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2006
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 8:03 GMT
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Instead of a solution looking for problem, it is a long waited solution for existing problem. NN180 will help people make better use of existing equipment. So NN180 is a solution for the past, present and the future.
nick
You could say it is part of a Pano-system... with out a fixed way of using it, or its components. It can solve many needs. I read somewhere that it will soon have a tilt adapter available , which will give other options/solutions?
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mediavets
Posts: 475
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 8:05 GMT
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Bradford Bohonus said: mediavets said: It's not for me because you have to mount the camera in landscape orientation which does not make sense when using a Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE lens on a cropped sensor DSLR.
You don't have to mount the camera that way (landscape) if you use an L-Bracket.
Yes, I have a very versatile one - it's called a Nodal Ninja 5.
Andrew
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Tri3
Posts: 44
Location: Austin, Texas, United States
Registered: 14 Sep 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 11:39 GMT
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Hey Nick,
When do you plan on having that Ring model come out?
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]
Posts: 289
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 15:00 GMT
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Tri3 said: Hey Nick,
When do you plan on having that Ring model come out?
Hopefully this month.
nick
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Bradford Bohonus
Posts: 80
Location: United States
Registered: 29 Jan 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 1 Oct 2008 at 17:08 GMT
updated: 1 Oct 2008 at 17:21 GMT
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mediavets said: Bradford Bohonus said: mediavets said: It's not for me because you have to mount the camera in landscape orientation which does not make sense when using a Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE lens on a cropped sensor DSLR.
You don't have to mount the camera that way (landscape) if you use an L-Bracket.
Yes, I have a very versatile one - it's called a Nodal Ninja 5.
Andrew
Yes, I do too- It is called an L-Bracket.
Seriously though, an NN5 is not an L-Bracket.
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mediavets
Posts: 475
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 2 Oct 2008 at 14:37 GMT
updated: 2 Oct 2008 at 15:07 GMT
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Doug Aurand said: Andrew
With the much higher resolution sensors, the difference between images made from a Full Circular Fisheye and a an older Cropped sensor is really hard to see.
Example: A Sigma 8mm used on both a Canon XT/400D (cropped 8mp) and the new Canon 5D (Full Frame 21MP) which would have full circular image, would produce stitched images that would be hard to tell apart using the even the large display size Panoguide has for the Gallery
I get an equirectangular 360x180 image of about 6400x3200 pixels from 4-shots around using my lowly 6MP Nikon D40 with Sigma 8mm FE mounting the camera in portrait orientation.
A Nikon D300 with Sigma 8mm FE in portrait orientation would produce an equirectangular 360x180 of around 8400x4200 pixels from 4 shots.
With a 21MP Canon 5DMkII using the same lens taking 3 shots one would get at best an equirectangular 360x180 image of 7588x3744 pixels.
The Canon 5D MkII SRP in UK is £2,299 in UK body only.
The Nikon D40 with kit lens costs just £241 from Amazon UK.
The Nikon D300 body only can be had for well under £1,000 in UK from official Nikon UK resellers.
Which would you choose? Of course one could use an NN180 with the Canon 5D MkII rather than an NN3/5 with the Nikon D40 or D300 so that would offset the cost difference a (very)little! 
Oh, and I get an equirectangular 360x180 of about 8,000x4,000 pixels from 7 shots using a Nikkor 10.5mm FE on my 6MP D40.
Doug Aurand said: And with enough overlap and the right software, 2 fisheyes are sooooooo easy to stitch!
This is a link to a scene stitched with just 2 circular fisheyes taken with a 6.3MP DSLR.
geoimages.berkeley.edu/worldwidepanorama/wwp608/h...
Shocking to some.....it was stitched with iPIX!!!
More shocking (to me)is that the Coastal Optical FE lens used costs US$4,500!
Doug Aurand said: I'm not used to working with as large a stitched image as you are, but even full screen, it looks pretty good to me
I'd hope so too if I was using a US$4,500 lens!
.............
To conclude it seems one gets a lot more bang for one's buck using the Sigma 8mm 8E on a cropped sensor body (in portrait orientation) than on a fullframe sensor body. And that you really get the benefit of a fullframe sensor when using a matched fullframe FE lens.
IMO the NN180(dedicated to single row shooting at zero pitch with the camera in landscape orientation, or portrait with third-party L-bracket)is a niche product within the (already) niche market for pano heads. But it is very attractively priced if it meets your needs.
Andrew
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 789
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Anyone getting the Nodal Ninja 180
Posted: 2 Oct 2008 at 15:48 GMT
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Andrew
You're making the assumption a 5D with a Sigma 8mm needs 3 shots and Wim Koornneef found that it only needs 2.
There are several scenes he didn and one that he let me produce with iPIX Interactive Studio that show you only need 2 shots. Tale a look;
www.panoguide.com/forums/tipsntricks/5296/
My point is that camera sensor resolution is growing faster than common computer monitor sizes.
Google Analytics shows 1024x768 is still the most common size that websurfers use to visit my website at 41%, with 1280x800 running second at 16%
That means since the early color 640x480 monitors, screen resolution has increased 156%
In about the same time period the Canon 1D series has gone from 4.1mp to 21mp, a 400% increase, with other cameras making similar jumps.
So while it will always be possible to get more resolution taking more shots with lenses that have a narrower FOV, on the Internet there becomes less and less benefit from those larger stitched images as they get bigger and bigger.
Unless you have the need to Zoom in and read the Surgeon General's Warning (USA) on a pack of cigarettes, the 300kb and 1MB files sizes used here in the Panoguide Gallery will serve most commercial uses of virtual photography.
There's a Coastal Optics 4.88mm for sale on eBay right now with a starting bid of US$2,200. This is the second or 3rd time is been up for sale. If my work in the last 5 weeks hadn't been so slow, I'd make an offer for it.
The Value of something is always a the relationship of Cost to Benefit.
I could still be shooting still photos with the used Nikon Coolpix 5400 and their Wide-Angle Lens Convertor that only cost me US$700 total, instead of the Canon XTi and Canon 10-22mm Wide Angle Zoom that set me pack US$1700, but I'm charging twice what I was for the Coolpix stills. The new combo has already paid for itself
I could get US$1000 for a ten scene hotel virtual tour shot with the Coastal Optics, have much better image quality than my Coolpix/FC-E9 setup. With just a little more work than I put into a real estate tour
Four and a half hotels and the lens is paid for!
The Sigma 8mm is a good value, its what I bought to produce better quality virtual tours than I can with the Coolpix/FC-E9.
But if I had the money I'd have gone with the Coastal Optics. I hope to in a year or so.
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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