Seba
Posts: 77
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Registered: 19 Aug 2005
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PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 7:19 GMT
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Hi there guys
Let me start with some info on the level of my skills and available tools.
I'm pretty new to PTGui Pro and panoramas over all. I did many of these in form of Flash presentations, but I was always given properly stitched images by my clients, and my part was only to place it within Flash project (I'm working in Flash for living). I did things like Interior Designer's portfolio... etc... I didn't' do much of the actual photography and stitching part myself.
Very recently, I've got more interest and some extra budget to start playing with it on my own. I have in here Canon 40D, 8mm Sigma F3.5 and Manfrotto 303SPH. I read lots of posts on this forum, tons of useful stuff. I also follow many of the tutorials, especially the one by John. Most of the time things work pretty well, considering my very limited experience on that topic.
There are however times when no matter what I do things go wrong and by wrong I mean total mess and it's driving me crazy because I know there is something I'm missing and can't figure it out. Perhaps something very fundamental that I over look.
I set up my tripod, make sure the lens is in best position possible. Learned it from John's tutorial "Finding the No-Parallax point".
I do 4 shots all around plus one zenith and one nadir, so 6 total. Sometimes just 5 w/o the nadir. I will retouch the tripod in photoshop and that's smallest problem. I follow the same work flow and set up, and I get very different results.
I import my images into PT Gui, sometimes the lens parameters are set automatically and sometimes I need to do it myself. Usually when detected automatically, I get best stitch results, and no so good when I need to do it manually. I pick Lens type Circular and FOV 180 degrees. I do CROP, apply to all and follow by Align Images. Just like in the John's tutorial "360 VR Stitching with PTGui for
beginners" (I don't however set the SmartBlend parameters, seem that when I do this, the images are total mess. The first alignment comes out so unreasonable that I don't even want to bother playing with the control points, so I skip part of that tutorial and seem to work ok)
Very often I get almost what I want, on the first go. Just minor adjustments like Horizontal and Vertical view, extra few control points. But sometimes, the alignment is way out, total mess that does not make any sense:
I try to remove control points of large values, re optimize multiple times and it's usually get worse
with every step. Then my images start rotating in the Project Assistant and there is no way I can get
the stitch to look any usable. The lens parameters change to some very odd numbers, 300 plus, 170, or
145.11111 and so on.
What am I missing here? Why using the same work flow I get such different results? I notice that when I remove the Zenith image, the stitching is much easier to achieve.
Does it matter how do I shot the zenith? I mean, say I do 4 photos all around. 1, 2, 3 and 4. Does it matter whether I just turn the camera and get the zenith or shall I go back position of the 1, 2, 3 or 4 and then turn it upside down to get the zenith?
Thanks for taking the time to read 
best regards
Sebastian
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DorinDXN
Posts: 2853
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Registered: 14 Nov 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 7:36 GMT
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Hi Sebastian,
Try to shoot 6 around, i.e. one at every 60°, plus one up (zenith)
Dorin
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mediavets
Posts: 1980
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 7:54 GMT
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Can you make a set of images available for download? I'd like to look at them and try a stitch.
Andrew
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Pete Loud
Posts: 397
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 14 Oct 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 10:40 GMT
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Hi Seba,
I had an almost identical problem yesterday. At first things looked OK then suddenly the images jumped out of position with enormous errors after optimising. What I did to get around this was to use the Panorama Editor and manually pull the images into roughly the correct position, with only 6 images it's not not much of a problem. Then Optimise again, and it was OK. I can't be sure that this works everytime, but it did yesterday.
I'm sure JH will come up the best answer before long 
It is a pity about problems like this with PTGui. I think it a great bit of software, let's hope that Version 8 will solve its bits of odd behaviour.
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. If you have not already seen them, check out my Malaysian Panos at www.peteloud.co.uk/photos/Penang/
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Roger Hein
Posts: 40
Location: North York, Canada
Registered: 27 Sep 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:01 GMT
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For this example I would suggest first aligning just the 4 around plus zenith - don't include the nadir shot. PTgui should have no problems. Then once you've done that you can either a) output the result and then manually touch up the nadir cube face separately and reintegrate it or b) try adding the nadir and use viewpoint correction to align it to the rest of the pano.
Roger...
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juann
Posts: 142
Location:
Registered: 6 May 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:24 GMT
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I have the same problem ...sometimes I have to repeat the projet entire again 8 - 9 times to get right align 
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tturner
Posts: 218
Location: Dallas,TX, United States
Registered: 28 May 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:34 GMT
updated: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:37 GMT
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Try setting the rotate function in the lower right corner from "auto" to "0". I was having the same problem but this has helped out. This was not a problem in version 6.
TTurner
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2791
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:38 GMT
updated: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:40 GMT
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Pete Loud said: Hi Seba,
It is a pity about problems like this with PTGui. I think it a great bit of software, let's hope that Version 8 will solve its bits of odd behaviour.
Please Pete do not blaim PTGui.
The only one to blaim is yourself for not learning the few things needed to avoid simple problems like this.
First one thing.
Auto control points are not at all necessarily correct and especially when using full circle 180 degree fisheyes they are almost never enough to get a perfect lens correction.
Also do not believe that shooting more images is better. 6 images around with a Sigma 8mm will easy give you controlpoints between image 1 and 3 etc and that is not a good idea, Also the parallax increases across the vertical axis with more images.
4 images gives you 20% overlap which is perfect.
Instead of using the Auto Align Feature create a template to use for all your panoramas.
1. Shooting: Shoot the images the same way always, avoid getting to much of panohead in the image as it will easy attract auto controlpoints and you do not want them on that part.
If you shoot zenith you can make the cropcircle a little smaller to avoid the panohead in the image.
Shoot the zenith same place always for example at first position.
2. Shoot Raw and remember to rotate all images to portrait. Do not use the auto rotate in camera.
3. Make a template using a panorama where you can easy set manual control points all the way from nadir to zenith.
This template should give you a perfect panorama without errors and with a min -max of 1-2 in controlpoint distance.
If you shoot al your panoramas the same way you now just need to apply this template, generate controlpoints and optimize. Assuming you have just a few controlpoints between all images you only need to optimize for yaw pitch and roll.
If your first image is perfectly levelled you also get a perfectly leveled panorama without the need for leveling with vertical controlpoints.
Hans
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Nikos Giannakopoulos
Posts: 137
Location: Athens, Greece
Registered: 10 Jan 2008
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:41 GMT
updated: 12 Aug 2008 at 11:50 GMT
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I think you should remove/disable the nadir shot from the initial optimizing procedure. You should use it only for the viewpoint...
www.johnhpanos.com/ptgvpt.htm
Note that the hand held nadir shot is not initally included.
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2791
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 12:32 GMT
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Seba said: Hi there guys
What am I missing here? Why using the same work flow I get such different results? I notice that when I remove the Zenith image, the stitching is much easier to achieve.
Sebastian
In this particular panorama you are missing that you do not have any controlpoints between some images.
As I said auto controlpoints on fisheyes may not be correctly set or as like in this case completelly missing which you have a red very visible warning for.
Hans
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Pete Loud
Posts: 397
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 14 Oct 2006
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 12:56 GMT
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Hi Hans,
I am always ready to accept that I have much to learn in creating panos, but if a great number of people are having the same problem with PTGui then it is probably PTGui that that needs sorting out not simply Pete Loud needing to learn more.
However I don't want to turn this into a bashing PTGui thread, as I have said I think it a great bit of software which needs a problem or two fixing.
I was not suggesting that 6 shots around was required. My reference to 6 images was in relation to the number of images that Seba needed to manually re-arrange in Panorama Editor.
BTW, I have already learnt to use RAW for panos and I do not use auto-rotate in camera.
As to your comments about the benefits of templates I feel that PTGui should be able to stitch images and produce a pano without using a template.
If you are suggesting that all the difficulties that users have with PTGui is due to their lack of learning I think that you are ignoring the obvious.
Pete
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Ken Warner
Posts: 821
Location: Mammoth Lakes, United States
Registered: 14 Aug 2004
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 16:32 GMT
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Pete Loud said: Hi Hans,
If you are suggesting that all the difficulties that users have with PTGui is due to their lack of learning I think that you are ignoring the obvious.
Pete
I had a similar problem yesterday with PTGui and PTAssembler. The pano I had trouble with is a simple cylindrical landscape Taken 8 around with a wide angle adapter. The images were exposed properly and when I generated the control points the images became rotated -- some extremely rotated -- like 60-80 degrees.
I tried setting control points by hand -- that didn't work. When I optimized, the images rotated again. This happened in both PTGui 7.8 and PTAssembler.
The lens/camera combo is a mixup. A Fuji compact with a Nikon .63 wide adapter. The EXIF data doesn't reflect the actual focal length or crop factor. I have to set those by hand. I'm sure I wasn't getting it right.
So I uninstalled both PTGui and PTAssembler. There was a Pano12.dll that I'm not sure where it came from. It might have come from my Hugin installations -- but PTGui said it was not compatible with that version of the dll even though it was a current version and a newer version of Pano12.dll than PTGui is compatible with.
So I deleted that dll and reinstalled PTGui and the pano stitched perfectly with out my help. I see that PTGui did not install a Pano12.dll.
This is all very odd.
Now I know I'm in the same league as Seba with regard to experience but the images in the pano rotated and then a fresh install and they didn't rotate.
So it's got to be a combo of inexperience (of which I have an abundance) and something wacky with the pano maker. I think that something gets wedged in the initiation configuration so that when things go bad, the just get worse and worse. I dunno...
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 2791
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 16:57 GMT
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Ken
Unless you used Panotools optimizer PTGui does not have anything to do with Pano12.dll
PTassembler is something else. It is based totally on Panotools.
Hans
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John Houghton
Posts: 3487
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 17:26 GMT
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PTGui is fully independent of the Panorama Tools programs these days, though you can still optionally make use of them if you install them using Jim Watters installer program (on Windows). That will install a compatible pano12.dll automatically.
It is not difficult to get consistently good results with PTGui, but it does require a little experience and an awareness of what is going on. What can make all the difference is not deliberately withholding from PTGui all you know about the project. 360x180 panos are usually taken with standard configurations (e.g. 4 around + zenith and nadir, say). You know what the lens focal length and crop factor is. You know what the yaw, pitch and roll angles are. You've stitched several panoramas previously so there are probably some reasonably good sets of lens distortion parameters available in these old projects.
It's really not rocket science. Give all this information to PTGui instead of just chucking the images at it and asking it to work everything out from scratch every time. As Hans pointed out, there is an extremely convenient way of easily and rapidly setting up this information: you apply an old "good" project as a template (via the File menu). Seba evidently has some successful projects available for use in this way.
After setting up all the project parameters in this way, use the Control Points menu to (you've guessed it) assign control points. You can then optimize y,p,r,fov and shift parameters for all the images (except uncheck y,p,r on one image for it to act as an anchor). Use the option delete the worst control points and reoptimize.
This will give you a reasonable general alignment, with very little chance of any images going topsy-turvy.
To get the optimum stitch, you need to check the worst control points and correct them if badly positioned, and make good any deficiencies in the automatic control point assignment - i.e. improve the spread if there is clumping and of course add control points if none have been generated between some images where that is necessary or desirable. Of course, you can also fine tune the lens parameters too in the optimization, if that is considered advantageous.
With a little practice, all this can be done quite quickly. Sometimes very little manual input is needed, other times the images are such that more work is necessary.
Ideally, you will perform a careful calibration exercise to construct the best possible template using images shot in ideal conditions.
The above describes in general terms the workflow I adopt, and I seldom experience any of the nightmare problems I see reported from time-to-time here and in other places.
John
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jimmyd
Posts: 174
Location: United States
Registered: 6 Nov 2004
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Re: PTGui Pro - very odd and unpredictable - due to my incompetence I guess...
Posted: 12 Aug 2008 at 17:38 GMT
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Pete Loud said: Hi Hans,
As to your comments about the benefits of templates I feel that PTGui should be able to stitch images and produce a pano without using a template.
Pete
One must understand something about PTgui. It was not designed to be "user friendly". It is used to create the best possible finished pano. Sometimes this means using a little more "elbow grease" on our end. Full automatic modes in most stitchers force you to accept certain results. PTgui allows one to say "no, I don't accept those results" and better them (if not perfect them) through the use of manual features and PROPER use of the optimizer. The key is understanding these optimization techniques and making them work to your advantage.
I am no expert, but I have gained leaps and bounds in just a few weeks with PtGui by just following the advice of those like John and Hans. It is imperative that you understand the software you are working with before you can expect optimum results.
As for picture rotation, disregard the thumbnails when they move on the "project assistance" page. The only place you should be concerned with orientation is on the "source images". I have no idea why the thumbnails rotate on the PA tab, but it is of no significance.
Additionally, simply adding the source images and pressing "align" will not get you the results you desire. One must optimize accounting for horizontal shift (among other things) before PTgui can properly work its "magic".
Making sure Raw images are rotated in their proper orientation BEFORE they are converted to tiff/jpeg and imported to PTgui is paramount.
Bottom line, you need to spend the time to learn the software, but more importantly read the helpful explanations by those that are experts. Doing so will allow you to eliminate some of the trial and error of learning an advanced piece of software without support.
j
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