Forum: Q & A

Thread: Try Before You Buy!

back to threads list | this thread is closed
Search the forums:
Author  Message 
tallmanirl

Posts: 76
Location: Ireland
Registered: 5 Jun 2008
Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 24 Jun 2008 at 19:23 GMT
I've often read you should try out equipment before you buy. The thing is, are shops (esp online) willing to let you have a free trial period with a camera and lenses?

Fergal
alert moderator
James Rigg
[Panoguide]

Posts: 288
Location: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 1 Jun 2003
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 6:31 GMT
updated: 25 Jun 2008 at 6:32 GMT
Hi Fergal

Within the European Union the Distance Selling Regulations allow you a cooling off period when purchasing goods over the phone or Internet. There are exceptions, and you are responsible for the cost of returning the goods. A good example of this is mobile phones: buy a mobile phone in a store and it is the manager's discretion whether to accept the phone back if you decide you don't like it after you have taken it home. But buy it over the phone or Internet and you have the legal right to return it within ~14 days providing you have not damaged it or the packaging (note: this applies to the handset only - the contract will still be binding from the moment you first use the handset to make a call).

Anyway, all this means that yes you probably can buy camera equipment online or over the phone and return it if you don't like it. However as far as I know the returned goods must be in mint condition. I do not know how much you could legally "use" the equipment before you are assumed to have "accepted" it and can no longer return it. (A bit like using the mobile phone to make a call, etc).

There's some more info here: www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base...

Regards
James.
alert moderator
Matt Rogers
[360 Precision]

Posts: 209
Location: Oxford UK, United Kingdom
Registered: 16 Jun 2005
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 7:17 GMT
You also have to be careful as the distance selling regulations don’t cover built-to-order or custom products. For example, if you buy an Apple iMac online and change the standard configuration by including a larger hard-drive or more RAM then this is considered to be a built-to-order item and Apple does not have to accept the return under the distance selling regulations.

With a DSLR it would be very easy for the online store to verify after return that the camera has been used due to the number of shutter releases. In this instance they could then charge you a re-stocking fee at their discretion.

These laws were set-up to protect consumers who often buy goods they don't really want or need and gives them the opportunity to return them. It was not set-up to give consumers a free 7 day rental of goods purchased online. You are not legally meant to USE the item in anyway and if the retailer can prove that you have, even if you've opened the box then a restocking fee can apply.

If you want to try a camera or lens then just be-friend a local retailer, some will let you take the equipment out of the shop for an hour or so to test. Or there are plenty of online rental sites. I don't see why retailers should have to use their time, energy and expense to ship an item only to have someone use it on a job then expect to be able to return it.

Matt
alert moderator
Terrywoodenpic

Posts: 81
Location: Saddleworth, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2006
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 9:00 GMT
Under the UK distance selling regulations. You certainly can check out the camera in any way that is reasonable to assess its suitability. This would include Unpacking and checking all the functions including taking test pictures.
How ever opening and using software is a grey area and is best avoided.
Retailers and manufacturers are not always happy with this regulation. and try to charge restocking fees which are always illegal.
If the goods prove faulty they must repay your original and return postage costs.
If you simply don't care for the goods when you check them out, you are responsible for return postage.

They are not legally able to apply their own terms of conditions that over ride the law.
alert moderator
Steven Scott

Posts: 38
Location: Lahaina, Maui, Hawaii, United States
Registered: 13 Mar 2008
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 25 Jun 2008 at 19:51 GMT
Come to my store --- Lighthouse Camera, right here on Dickenson Stree, Lahaina Town, just north of Ka'anapali, on the 'isle of Mau'i.

You can take out any camera-lens combo you want and play with it.

Open 9 to 7.
Look forward to seeing you soon!

steve
(just kidding, of course!)

Don't spend significant coins without getting it in your hands and playing with it !!!!
alert moderator
Matt Rogers
[360 Precision]

Posts: 209
Location: Oxford UK, United Kingdom
Registered: 16 Jun 2005
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 6:27 GMT

Terrywoodenpic said:

Under the UK distance selling regulations. You certainly can check out the camera in any way that is reasonable to assess its suitability. This would include Unpacking and checking all the functions including taking test pictures.
How ever opening and using software is a grey area and is best avoided.


That's not specifically true and is a grey area. You are entitled to inspect the goods in the same fashion that you could if in person in-store. For example, my local Jessops would allow you to test a cheap point and shoot but they would never let you take test shots with a D3 for example. Some other stores may be more forgiving. But to go out and take panoramas with it and then expect to be able to return it if you don't like the results I feel is completely unreasonable. There are thousands of websites with reviews, sample images etc so there's really no excuse not to know exactly what you're getting. Again, retailers should not have to bear the cost incurred by lazy consumers.

The other difference is large retailers can afford to stock demo units in-store for customers to try out. Another problem this can cause for consumers is the goods you receive from an online reseller can be classified as brand new even though it may have been used by dozens of customers and returned under DSR. I highly doubt it happens to this extent but the reseller has every right to then resell the goods as brand new, consumers can't have it all their own way.

Personally we've been quite lucky as we've only ever had two returns in four years and never under the distance selling regulation. If a customer is genuine and has really changed their minds without needing to use the product then I'd have no problems what-so-ever issuing a refund. I do however disagree with having to refund the initial postage fees.

At the end of the day you just have to ask yourself, would you be happy with an online reseller shipping you a DSLR sold as new if someone else had already been using it for 7 days ? I know I wouldn't hence I'd never abuse the system.

Matt
alert moderator
Matt Rogers
[360 Precision]

Posts: 209
Location: Oxford UK, United Kingdom
Registered: 16 Jun 2005
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 6:32 GMT
updated: 26 Jun 2008 at 6:34 GMT
I've been thinking about this scenario pretty much all day yesterday and do you really think that an online reseller should give you a free trial period ? If so where do you expect the trial camera and lens to come from and who should pay for it ?

A reseller would have to sell around 10 Nikon D3s to cover the cost of just one demo unit, lenses aren't so bad. But someone has to pay and I can guarantee you one fact, Nikon won't.

It's never actually crossed my mind that a retailer should offer me a free trial period and I'd never expect it.

Just one point on James' comment, it's only 7 days as long as the retailer provides the information in writing (online/email) as specified by the regulations. If the information needed isn't supplied then the consumer has 3 months sad

Matt
alert moderator
James Rigg
[Panoguide]

Posts: 288
Location: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 1 Jun 2003
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 13:45 GMT
updated: 26 Jun 2008 at 13:48 GMT
Ooops sorry my mistake about the 14 days. Computer software is excluded, so make sure you do not break the seal! Similarly perishable goods (for example cut flowers, food) are excluded.

Interestingly there is a statutory duty of care on the consumer to take "reasonable care" of the product, but there is no precise definition of what this means and the seller can stipulate what is considered reasonable. Having said that the seller cannot restrict the consumer's reasonable opportunity to inspect and assess the product. This probably explains why a consumer is entitled to open packaging and inspect the product (mobile phone handset, camera, whatever). I imagine that for a camera it is possible for the seller to stipulate you can switch it on, explore the menus and settings, feel how big/heavy it is etc, but not to actually take any photos.

There's a useful guide to all this on the OFT website (admittedly the advice on it is merely advice and not legally binding in itself, and presumably applies only to the UK):
www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/gener...

Regards
James.
alert moderator
tallmanirl

Posts: 76
Location: Ireland
Registered: 5 Jun 2008
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 16:43 GMT
Thanks guys,
All very interesting points. I know you can buy some products online/over the phone and have a money back guarantee if you don't like it. Of course it is very understandable that sellers might not provide this. My attiitude is that in this life, if you don't ask, you don't get! I don't intend doing a big internet search in this regard, but it was worth enquiring.

Regards,

Fergal.
alert moderator
Terrywoodenpic

Posts: 81
Location: Saddleworth, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2006
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 at 16:46 GMT
updated: 26 Jun 2008 at 16:50 GMT

Matt Rogers said:

Under the UK return it if you don't like the results I feel is completely unreasonable. There are thousands of websites with reviews, sample images etc so there's really no excuse not to know exactly what you're getting. Again, retailers should not have to bear the cost incurred by lazy consumers.

The other difference is large retailers can afford to stock demo units in-store for customers to try out. Another problem this can cause for consumers is the goods you receive from an online reseller can be classified as brand new even though it may have been used by dozens of customers and returned under DSR. I highly doubt it happens to this extent but the reseller has every right to then resell the goods as brand new, consumers can't have it all their own way.

Personally we've been quite lucky as we've only ever had two returns in four years and never under the distance selling regulation. If a customer is genuine and has really changed their minds without needing to use the product then I'd have no problems what-so-ever issuing a refund. I do however disagree with having to refund the initial postage fees.

At the end of the day you just have to ask yourself, would you be happy with an online reseller shipping you a DSLR sold as new if someone else had already been using it for 7 days ? I know I wouldn't hence I'd never abuse the system.

Matt


The following excerpt demonstrates that the conditions are fairly onerous on suppliers, It would seem that if the customer takes reasonable care jut about anything goes.
This might not seem fair... but if sellers had been fair to customers in the past such regulations would never have come into existence.
Sellers have the choice to use distance selling or not, if they do they are bound by the regulations. they are specifically excluded from having their own conditions.

Terry

Can I insist that consumers who cancel an order within the
cancellation period return the goods as new or in their
original packaging?
3.58 No. Consumers are under a duty to take reasonable care of the goods
while in their possession as discussed in paragraph 3.44. The DSRs
allow consumers to examine goods they have ordered as they would
in a shop. If that requires opening the packaging and trying out the
goods then they have not breached their duty to take reasonable
care of the goods.
In these circumstances you cannot insist that
consumers return the goods as new or in their original packaging.You may ask consumers to return goods with the original packaging,
but you cannot insist on this.
In the case of goods such as earrings
that have hygiene seals, you may require consumers to exercise
reasonable care by not removing the seals when examining them.How can I resell the goods as new if they have been opened
and tested by the customer?
3.59 The DSRs do not provide any general exception to the right to cancel
on this point. Unless one of the specific exceptions referred to above
at paragraph 3.38 applies, consumers can exercise their right to
cancel a contract and return the goods to you. The DSRs do not link
cancellation rights with a supplier’s ability to resell items as new.
Whose responsibility is it to look after the goods if an order
is cancelled?
3.60 Consumers have a statutory duty to take reasonable care of the
goods while in their possession. Where a consumer cancels an order
under the DSRs they have a duty to return the goods to you or make
them available for collection. The DSRs do not require the consumer
to return the goods but if the contract says the consumer must return
them and they do not, you can charge them for the direct cost of recovery.
alert moderator
tallmanirl

Posts: 76
Location: Ireland
Registered: 5 Jun 2008
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 15:35 GMT
Come to think of it, a Trial Period isn't all that unreasonable, if you return the camera in perfect condition. After all, you wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, and you can be spending a similar amount.

Fergal.
alert moderator
marcus newey

Posts: 127
Location: somerset, United Kingdom
Registered: 23 Oct 2005
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 at 22:05 GMT
updated: 27 Jun 2008 at 22:07 GMT

tallmanirl said:

Come to think of it, a Trial Period isn't all that unreasonable, if you return the camera in perfect condition. After all, you wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, and you can be spending a similar amount.

Fergal.


Maybe not.
But if you decide to buy a product from an internet site because their price is better, then it's buyer be[a]ware, as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to try before you buy either hire, or go to a real shop that has the associated overheads, check out the goods, and, if you like the product, play fair and buy from them.

The distance selling protection is meant to protect consumers from pressure selling, not as some "I'll just send it back if I change my mind" right.
alert moderator
Terrywoodenpic

Posts: 81
Location: Saddleworth, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Jul 2006
Re: Try Before You Buy!
Posted: 28 Jun 2008 at 8:36 GMT
The problem today is finding a real shop that stocks what you want to look at. Or in finding a camera shop at all. Neither of my nearest large towns has one. Oldham and Ashton-under-line.

when you do find one, they probably do not have what you want, or are not prepared to let you handle it.

Soon it will be web sale only..... sad

Distance selling regulations are to let you examine and assess the goods, and not find that you are then forced to buy the goods, because you have signed for them or opened them, as once was the case.


I make full use of buying from the web stores.. As yet I have never had to return anything after checking them, but it gives me considerable reassurance that I would be able to do so if the need arose.

Terry
alert moderator