Jo and Tom
Posts: 11
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 May 2008
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Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 18:26 GMT
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Hi there I`m new to this forum and new to Panoramic imaging, and new to DSLR photography so I guess you could say I`m a complete novice. I need to get into doing virtual tours as part of my soon to be new job as a Domestic Energy Assessor, and it is going to be a necessity for me to provide Virtual Tours for Estate Agents as part of my work and I will probably have to supply them with a Virtual Tour AND wide angle still shots. I may well want to try and supply virtual tours for other businesses as well.
It would be nice if you guys could point me in the right direction as to best camera, lens, tripod etc. that are reasonable in price AND easy to use. 
Should I be going for 2 seperate cameras - 1 for the Panoramic and 1 for the still shots. Or is it feasable/sensible to have 1 camera and change lenses as necessary ?
Are there any on here who do this work already for Estate Agents. If so any pointers you can give me as to the best way to procede with equipment etc. would be greatly appreciated.
I have been looking at the Canon 400D which has AEB with +/- 2EV. With the AEB would I just have to press the shutter once to get for example 3 shots or would I have to press the shutter 3 times to get +1, 0, -1 ?
What I am hoping to find is a system that is as easy as possible for me to use (bearing in mind my lack of experience).
Heres hoping you guys can make my life relatively easy, and thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Tom
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 18:56 GMT
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Jo and Tom
Its quite possible to use the 400D for both wide-angle still photography and virtual photography
I use a 400D (XTi in the USA) with the Canon 10-22mm Wide-Angle Zoom lens for my Real Estate Photography and get great results.
I just bought a Sigma 8mm f/3.5 to use on the 400D for my higher quality virtual tours. I use my Nikon Coolpix 5400 and a Nikon FC-E9 Fisheye lens converter for my real estate tours
If I hadn't already bought a Nodal Ninja 3 panoramic tripod head, I may have bught the Sunex 185° 5.6mm fisheye and their proprietary rotator.
To be very honest, the 400D's limited AEB makes it marginally valuable. If you're looking to High Dynamic Range/Tone Mapped images, the limit of 3 shots in the AEB isn't very usefull.
If you turn on the AEB and set the shooting to multiple shots, it will shoot the +1,0 and -1 (you can set the range wider ot narrower) shots one right after the other just by holding down the the shutter release.
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Hans Nyberg
Posts: 598
Location: Denmark
Registered: 28 Aug 2005
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 19:37 GMT
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Doug Aurand said: Jo and Tom
ITo be very honest, the 400D's limited AEB makes it marginally valuable. If you're looking to High Dynamic Range/Tone Mapped images, the limit of 3 shots in the AEB isn't very usefull.
If you turn on the AEB and set the shooting to multiple shots, it will shoot the +1,0 and -1 (you can set the range wider ot narrower) shots one right after the other just by holding down the the shutter release.
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
Doug the bracketting of the Canons including 400D is far superior to the Nikons.
As far as I know there are none of the Nikons , not even the D3 which offers 2 EV bracketting.
All Canons do.
This means that you have to do at least 5 shots bracketing instead of 3 to get a set which has any usefulness.
There is no idea at all to shoot 1 EV bracketting for panoramas.
Shooting 5 shots is not just waste of place on the Memory card, It takes time to sort the images and trash the ones you do not need,
And perhaps the worst is that for long exposures from 1/8 and longer youy really need a lot of extra time to shoot the images.
Each image needs 2 seconds delay for mirror lockup so even if you just take 6 around and zenith the time you shoot can result in changes in the light.
Canon has a perfect system for shooting mirror lockup with 2 sec delay.
Not sure if there is anything similar on the Nikons.
Hans
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Jo and Tom
Posts: 11
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 May 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 20:13 GMT
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Doug,
Thanks for your reply. One reason I am thinking of the Canon 400D is cost. I will be hard pushed to purchase all of the equipment necessary - camera, tripod, rotator head, etc. So I thought it better to have some AEB rather than none at all.
Would you advocate having just 1 camera with 2 lenses. Is it a pain constantly changing lenses and possibly getting dust in ?
Is it quick/simple changing lenses on the canon 400D ?
Is it feasible to produce a decent quality Panorama with for example Sigma 10-20mm or 12-24mm lenses ?
The reason I ask this question is if it is feasible to produce a decent panorama with these lenses then at least I would be able to shoot wide angle stills as well without having to remove the lens.
Tom
UK
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 20:25 GMT
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Hans
I didn't say the Nikons are any better.
My point was that "bracketing" was never meant to be used for HDR/Tone Mapping/Enfuse purposes and the limited 3 shot bracketing that the Canon 400D can do is of marginal value.
I do massive amounts of mutliple shutter speed exposures for my real estate interior still photos and in a room with normal lighting as well as bright windows or a sliding glass door, 5 shots (+2,+1,0,-1 and -2) is the minimum I shoot. More typical is 10 expsures (+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5,-6 and -7). I usually don't use the darkest 2 shots, but its "digital film", what difference does it make if I have extra shots. My thinking is to take more than I need.
A 3 shot bracket just doesn't provide enough range to get the views out the windows. And the closer the shots are in EV (like 1EV) the smoother the HDR/Tone Mapping/Enfuse compositing.
After all, that's what Gigabyte memory cards are for.
And I don't bother "trashing" the imags I don't use. Just burn the set for several homes to a US$0.19 CD and clear my Harddrive for the next set of new photos
While its possible the light will change slightly for outside shoots, I rarely have a problem with New Mexico's clear blue skies and almost all my work is inside with no direct sunlight, just diffused sunlight
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 20:36 GMT
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Tom
The Canon 400D has come down in price here in the USA since the announcement of the 450D (main difference is the 12MP sensor), its a good value.
For my real estate work, I currently I use the Canon for still photos and my Coolpix for the virtual tour.
But since I have to disassemble one and put it away then assemble the other to put it on the one tripod I carry with me, its six of one and half a dozen of another whether you have 2 cameras.
You can make very good virtual images with the 10-22mm and 12-24mm lenses, but you'll need a lot more shots than a Sunex 5.6mm (3 shots), Sigma 8mm f/3.5 (4 shots tilted) or with a Sigma 10mm (7 to 8 like the Nikkor 10.5mm).
I've played with using my 10-22mm lens for virtual images and it was just way too much work compared to the Sigma 8mm
Depending on where you're shooting it can be essential to have 2 setups. I dropped one of my old Coolpix 950s with the Fisheye lens on it while I was out of town on a paid hotel shoot. But the backup camera/lens was in my hotel room, so I just switched equipment and barely broke stride.
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 21:06 GMT
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Tom
The main reason I bought the Canon 400D/XTi instead of the Nikon D80 I was comparing it to was the CMOS sensor the Canon uses instead of the CCD sensor Nikon uses in everything except the very expensive D2 and D3 which have CMOS sensors.
Sony does the same thing with their new DSLR line of cameras, their affordable models like the A100 and A200 have CCD, but their top of the line A700 has a CMOS sensor.
CMOS sensors are more resistant to "blooming" than CCD sensors. With Wide-Angle lenses and even more so with Fisheyes and their large FOV, I almost always have a bright window, sliding glass door or very bright light fixture in the room that is "blooming" out of its edge like the frame of window.
This "bloom" often produced a dark "halo" in my HDR/Tone Mapped composites shot with my Nikon Coolpix 5400 and 8700, especially around recessed ceiling lights.
I don't see any "halos" in my HDR/Tone Mapped still photos shot with the Canon.
That's a lot better reason to select the Canon over the Nikons, than the the 3 shot bracketing, assuming you're going to use the bracketing to produce HDR/Tone Mapped scenes
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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irieman
Posts: 104
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Jul 2006
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 21:26 GMT
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Can't for the life of me see how being a Domestic Energy Assesor requires an ability to shoot panoramas - but we'll let that pass.
As you are already talking about AEB I guess that you have read threads about HDR etc - so bearing in mind your lack of experience - I would suggest that the very first thing that you should do is join an evening class and properly understand how to shoot well exposed single frames before overloading yourself with HDR ( incorrect term BTW, it is tonemapping - but making the distinction is my fetish so don't let it bother you) or other advanced techniques.
There is also a huge amount of information available on line - see the how to section on the main page of this site - which will give you a very good start.
There are an increasing number of posts to this and other forums asking similar questions to yours and although most members are remarkably tolerant and incredibly helpful do remember that in the circumstances that you describe you are effectively asking for commercial advice and knowledge for free - the more effort that you make in research and practice the better the response. Remember there is no single easy and obvious solution - we don't hold some magic knowledge which will make you a commercial success overnight.
Like any new business you will have to judge what your income might be and then decide how much to invest in capital equipment etc.
Yes the Canon 400D is a perfectly good choice but there are a number of companies that advertise complete packages - camera, rotator, software etc which might be worth considering - at least you will then know that they are all compatible with each other. I think that you should allow a minimum of six months for learning the basics before trying to sell your services, it is a very competitive market that you are aiming at and currently there are a lot of cut price operators all producing moderately (and shockingly bad) work - if you want to stand out then quality must be your watchword.
I'm not trying to pour cold water on your ideas but that is the reality of the situation.
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Jo and Tom
Posts: 11
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 May 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 21:38 GMT
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Doug,
thanks a lot for your input, much appreciated.
When looking at AEB in what order should I be looking at things ?
The total number of AEB frames; maximum EV step; maximum EV range with AEB.
I know from what I have read that burst rate comes into the equation as well. It appears that the higher the maximum EV range, together with burst rate etc. pushes the cost of the camera required sky high. Far too high for my budget.
So because the sensor in the Canon cameras is of better quality I will probably go for that. regarding which FE lens I am being tempted by the latest Sunex 5.6mm lens that you mentioned over the Sigma 8mm FE, because there is only about £30.00 (60$) or so difference in price. But at least I know that either of these lenses will do a good job.
In your opinion do you think that using the above items I will achieve a reasonably high quality of panorama ?
Because of my new job of doing Energy Assessments my hand is being forced into doing the Virtual Tour for the Estate Agents (Realtors) at what may well be a free add-on cost to enable me to secure the Energy Assessment work. Therefore I need to keep my costs as low as possible whilst keeping in mind the need to produce quality panoramas.
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 21:41 GMT
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irieman
Wait? Wait? Wait?
Study and do research?????
This is the world of instant gratification!!!
You're shockingly out of tune with modern society, irieman!!! 
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Jo and Tom
Posts: 11
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom
Registered: 8 May 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 21:55 GMT
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Irieman,
thanks for your input. You I assume, not being an Energy Assessor will not know how bad the work situation is for us guys and that right now there is one organisation offering FREE Virtual Tours to Estate Agents in order to secure the right to produce their HIP Packs. So because of this and the downturn in the housing market I am aware that I am going to have to provide on a like for like basis.
I do as a matter of fact plan joining a photography class. I have joined this and another forum to try and get advice etc. to help me along the way - the whole point of forums surely ?
If you do not want to give your "Commercial" advice for free then don`t. I gladly give mine in my current trade.
Thankfully so far I have encountered only friendliness and helpfulness, just the way the world should be.
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mediavets
Posts: 139
Location: Isleham, Cambs., United Kingdom
Registered: 8 Feb 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 22:02 GMT
updated: 8 May 2008 at 22:09 GMT
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Tom
Jo and Tom said: Doug,
...regarding which FE lens I am being tempted by the latest Sunex 5.6mm lens that you mentioned over the Sigma 8mm FE, because there is only about £30.00 (60$) or so difference in price. But at least I know that either of these lenses will do a good job.
In your opinion do you think that using the above items I will achieve a reasonably high quality of panorama ?
Because of my new job of doing Energy Assessments my hand is being forced into doing the Virtual Tour for the Estate Agents (Realtors) at what may well be a free add-on cost to enable me to secure the Energy Assessment work. Therefore I need to keep my costs as low as possible whilst keeping in mind the need to produce quality panoramas.
If you are thinking of the Sunex then see this thread:
www.panoguide.com/forums/commercial/4437/
With the Sunex blending at the Zenith could be a concern as overlaps are small (compared to the advantage of a zenith shot with the Sigma 8mm)- have a look at sample pnaos shot with the Sunex and see what you think. And on the same DSLR body the Sunex will produce a considerably lower resolution image.
Not sure where your £30 price difference between the Sunex and the Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE lenses some from.
Only UK price I've seen for the Sunex if £562.50 plus VAT. Then add the Sunex rotator at £187.50 plus VAT. That's from 360 Tactical VR.
Compared to £499 including VAT for the Sigma 8mm (Jacobs Digital) and £164.44 including VAT for NN3 kit (Red Door VR) and you could cut the price of the Sigma 8mm by importing from Hong Kong from a reliable eBay seller (eg. UR Galaxy).
Not sure what the fee is for a Domestic Energy Assessment but given what a decent set of panos and wide angle stills is worth you may want to think of offering the DEA for free and charging for the photography?
Andrew
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gus
Posts: 305
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 19 Jun 2007
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 22:13 GMT
updated: 8 May 2008 at 22:14 GMT
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irieman said: Can't for the life of me see how being a Domestic Energy Assesor requires an ability to shoot panoramas - but we'll let that pass.
Actually, I studied to become a DEA and the intention was to offer a sideline service of doing virtual tours. Think about it. As a DEA you visit up to 4 properties a day that are being put on the market. You are in direct contact with estate agents who give you access to properties for sale. Cant have it easier than that You can offer a cheaper service too, since you are visiting the property anyway to do an energy assessment.
I quit halfway through the course when it bacame apparant that initially only 4bed houses will requires energy certificates.
gus
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 219
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 22:35 GMT
updated: 8 May 2008 at 22:36 GMT
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Andrew
The Outdoor Dining scene on Sunex's sample tour page www.sunex.com/dslr/virtualtour.htm has a bunch of beams at the Zenith.
This is the best test they have of Zenith alignment and it looks pretty good to me.
One of the other scenes, Sitting Room does have a Zenith shadow that a Zenith shot stitched in would eliminate, if you get it to align on that plain white ceiling.
I test stitched several of the sets that Sunex put links to in the the Sunex thread (some of the links are dead now) and both RealViz Sticher and PTGui stitched them near perfectly, the first time.
Just to let you know, the Sunex's 185° field of view is bigger than most of the Coolpix cameras with the FC-E8 and E9 FOV of 183° used by 100s of virtual tour photographers for 2 fisheye sitching and the Sunex is used for 3 fisheyes
I've been doing real estate virtual tours for several years and these are more than good enough for real estate work in the USA.
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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mskp
Posts: 143
Location:
Registered: 19 Oct 2006
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Re: Newbie and complete novice.
Posted: 8 May 2008 at 22:40 GMT
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Hans Nyberg said: As far as I know there are none of the Nikons , not even the D3 which offers 2 EV bracketting.
Hans
Hi, Hans
Maybe I misunderstood something in your comment, but my Nikon D80 does -2/0/+2 bracketing.
Regards, Martin
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