Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Panos in restricted space
Posted: 25 Apr 2008 at 10:05 GMT
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I wonder if anyone could give me a few starting hints about shooting panos in confined spaces. I've been asked by a friend if I'd like to shoot the interior of his yacht - it's about 35 ft overall - so it's just the main cabin (terminology?)which he'd like shot.
I realise that this is going to be a trial and error situation but are there any peculiarities about relatively confined spaces which need to be considered? Obviously it would be good to include the nadir in the final pano, but there is likely to be quite a bit of obstruction so that the nadir won't just be empty floor space.
Any suggestions appreciated.
Roy
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Matt Rogers
[360 Precision]
Posts: 153
Location: Oxford UK, United Kingdom
Registered: 16 Jun 2005
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 25 Apr 2008 at 11:11 GMT
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If the entrance pupil is correct then the size of the space you're shooting isn't relevant unless of course you can't physically fit your equipment in the space. I can't foresee any problems in a 35ft yacht. As yachts, especially small ones are quite dim I'd shot the nadir on a tripod and use viewpoint correction in PTGui to stitch it in.
Matt
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Rosauro
Posts: 223
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 15 Dec 2006
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 25 Apr 2008 at 11:22 GMT
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Alternatively you can shoot the nadir like this... Your choice...
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John Houghton
Posts: 2021
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 25 Apr 2008 at 12:16 GMT
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Roy, I've only shot a boat interior once, so I'm hardly experienced. I've posted one of the panos here before:
www.johnhpanos.com/yachta.htm
It didn't present any unusual problems, except that the conditions are very cramped. Floors can be carpeted and may flex as you shuffle round, so the tripod footing may not be very solid. Also, stability may be further impaired by having to draw the tripod legs in to fit the space available. Best to move well away when making an exposure. Dynamic range can be very high, so bracketed shots are recommended. Make sure that you only have a simple flat nadir hole to patch with a separate nadir shot. If your horizontals don't extend right down to the tripod feet, take two nadir shots at right angles on the pano head to make the nadir hole as small as possible.
John
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Apostolis Ventouris
Posts: 2
Location: United States
Registered: 25 Apr 2008
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 25 Apr 2008 at 14:37 GMT
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Another option is to use a smaller tripod, or a mini flash bracket with legs and start the pano from ontop of an object.
I used to try all kinds of things with nadir patching, and balancing acts, etc... I found a new technique that gives me the best results so far and stitches seamlessly even on checkerboard floors.
Shoot the entire pano as usual. For me thats 6 shots around, and 2 shots up 180 degrees apart. (preference) Now I shoot two shots down at 180 degrees apart while still on the tripod. Yes, this does capture the entire tripod. But between the two shots you eliminate the legs and only get a nice small tripod circle in the center of the frame.
I take a third bottom shot at this point. I crank the ISO up to 1600 and adjust speed up so I can go handheld. I stand to the vertical edge of my fisheye (long hood section) so my legs end up in the far corner. I then hold the camera in place with a level in the hot shoe to keep it straight and remove the tripod with my other hand and place it behind me. (QR helps!) I shoot a single down shot. Actually with this method ive even gotten fantastic HDR brackets shooting in burst mode.
WHen I place this third shot over the other two, I can easily mask out the center and have a perfectly aligned bottom. The majority of the frame is from the tripod shots and only 10% in the center is handheld. This works great for really close quarters too.
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michael przewrocki
Posts: 664
Location: basel, Switzerland
Registered: 19 Nov 2004
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 26 Apr 2008 at 6:52 GMT
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using new sigma 4.5mm? check www.rytterfalk.com for car-interior with person
i have once seen wonderful yacht-interior shots. maybe others have better organization to find it..
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sapper
Posts: 10
Location: Barcelona, Spain
Registered: 23 Jun 2007
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mhc1
Posts: 112
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Registered: 29 Dec 2005
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 26 Apr 2008 at 9:30 GMT
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A Sigma 8 will do a great job !
Smalles place on a yacht I did:
www.netzserver1.de/pg8/index.php?datei=piiidkabin...;region=Patina_III&version=Quicktime&player=auto
only 4 footprints of space.
My biggest problem was the movement of the yacht an myself.
Athough in a enclosed physical system I think the system moves a little and when opening the door to turn the head the tripod got hit a little.
ciao
mike
www.360de.de
(relaunched)
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Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 17:37 GMT
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Thanks to everyone for the responses. I haven't had time until today to reply - although I have actually been shooting a few panos.
Apostolis' method is pretty similar to the way I mostly shooting large spaces (notably churches). I'm a bit curious as to why the 2 X 180 up though? The 2 X 180 down on the tripod I always shoot but seldom use. Mainly because all my attempts to get these two shots combined in register have failed (sensor shift? I have no idea) and the resulting asymetrical combined image seems to cause more trouble than it's worth - it never seems to stitch properly. I invariably patch in a handheld nadir using CS to distort/scale as required. Sometimes it even looks ok... I have a hotshoe level and tried it a few times but found I can usually guess the level more accurately than using it.
I'd like to try the viewpoint correction method at some time soon as it looks like the optimum if done right, but I forsee difficulties. I still sometimes get nearly perfect stitching and then suddenly without changing anything have great difficulty with the next one. So viewpoint corrected nadirs fill me with trepidation.
The "tilted tripod" method bemuses me completely since I can see no way that it's possible to get the lens perpendicular and at the same hight as the other seven shots.
Having taken a look at the boat there's not a lot of space and the chances of getting it shot with a flat nadir are slim. There's a table protruding into the main cabin area which makes for very awkward setup. Luckily I have to wait until he's finished working on it before shooting so I may try shooting the inside of my wardrobe first.
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Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 17:40 GMT
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Sapper
Cheated the nadir! Doesn't count!
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Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 17:52 GMT
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Michael have you (or anyone else) tried this 4'5 Sigma lens? Whilst I feel queasy at the thought of buying another lens right now.... www.microglobe.co.uk/ are offering it at £539.
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Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 18:01 GMT
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John, your pano of the yacht looks exactly like I'd like mine to look. It also made me think; there's obviously not a lot of space for a wide spread of tripod legs. I have thought several times that it might be useful to have a heavy stage-weight of some kind and use it to tie down the tripod centre so that the legs could be kept at minimal spread.
Also, I've been using a Manfrotto levelling plate which is pretty big so I think I'll have to eliminate it in this situation.
I'd still like to know how to get the 2 X 180 tripod nadir shots to fuse useably though...
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John Houghton
Posts: 2021
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 20:03 GMT
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Roy, The way to use the two nadir images is to include them both in the project along with the other images. Just optimize them into position like the rest. That will get them into correct alignment. However, you first need to add an alpha channel to each of those images to mask out the pano head and tripod (and anything else you want to exclude). If you're not au fait with alpha channel masks, see www.johnhpanos.com/alphatut.htm - it's quite easy.
John
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moto
Posts: 9
Location: Gurgaon, India
Registered: 24 Apr 2008
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 3 May 2008 at 20:08 GMT
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confined spaces usually means extreme dof. i normally use a custom hyperfocal dist chart, but for inside cars, yachts, etc, you're most likely not going to get everything in focus. your best bet would be to close the aperture all the way, and try to position cam at least 4 feet from closest object. even if you cant, still manually set focus to 4 feet. this will ensure most everything stays sharp.
your gonna have to find the nodal point on your lens using trial and error process. first position it on pano head to make center of front glass as axis. take a couple pics of objects very close and far from lens to maximize the parallex error effect. then bit by bit, move the camera forward so 3d axis gets nearer to camera body. if you go past half way point on lens housing, you've probably went too far. you may not get it exactly perfect, but you need to work to approach perfection in these type of shooting conditions. mark camera position carefully on your pano head, so you can set it exactly the same next time you unpack your gear, without having to start tuning from scratch.
if you are shooting the interrior of the cabin, which is mostly closed off from natual light, but still have windows facing towards sun, your dynamic range will be far outside camera limits, so bracketing hdr will be a must. take 3 shots (+/- 2stops) of EVERY shot. current ptgui requires this for fully automated hdr linked stitching.
for your nadir, there are a couple options. you can either shoot a bunch of shots from varying degrees when angled down 60 degrees with your 20mm. you will then have to go into PS and cut out all tripod parts on all the source images. because you will hit the areas under the tripod at varying angles, you will end up with a pretty clean nadir.
if you want to completely eliminate the need for a nadir cap, and make the tripod legs vanish all together, you're gonna have to take a couple hand held shots. i've come up with a really cool way of doing this, both indoors and out. but much easier indoors.
when finished shooting the pano, rotate the camera straight down on your pano head (which ensures the nodial point stays put). then use a tack, or bit of duct tape to hang a string directly above your camera, with a heavy nail attached to the end (best to use a plumb bob). you may have an issue on a yacht with a rocking boat tho. hopefully you can do this when its docked in a calm bay. if this is an issue, you'll have to resort to the outdoor method, which i can detail if you'd like. anyway, adjust the height of the nail or plumb bob so it barely touches the back of your cam. i use a strong plastic clip to hold a loop of string once height is perfect. careful not to scratch the lcd with nail or plumb bob (i put a bit of hot glue on mine to prevent this). i then use one of those pens filled with whiteout liquid to temporarily mark the exact spot of the nail or plumb bob tip on the back of my cam body.
then you can take your camera off the tripod, move the tripod away, line up the back of your camera body with the lil whiteout dot, and make it level using a hotshoe spirit level. make sure cam settings are fast enough for hand held (<1/60s). as long as you had your tripod legs pulled in pretty tight for the pano, just one shot should do. you'll need to be careful to orient the camera in the same fashion it was on the tripod (base of camera body facing same direction). if not, the whole dot/string thing will put you off center.
doing this should actually allow you to include your nadir shot right in with your pano shots. ptgui should stitch this nearly perfectly. you will most likely end up with parts of your body in the frame, that will need to be cut out in PS before putting through your stitcher.
there are various other methods of closing up your nadir quite nicely, some much easier than the above process. but ive found my method to work quite well. its a bit crazy, but so is what we are doing.
-moto
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Skridlov
Posts: 105
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 12 Nov 2007
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Re: Panos in restricted space
Posted: 10 May 2008 at 14:37 GMT
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Hi Moto
"resort to the outdoor method, which i can detail if you'd like."
Yes please.
And re the hotshoe level, I bought one for precisely this purpose but find it almost impossibly difficult to get results from as it means reversing the camera so that the hotshoe and shutter release are toward me.
PIA though it is I have resorted to defishing the handheld shot (shot with higher ISO and shutter speed plus autofocus sometimes) and scale/skew/distorting a patch onto the nadir cubeface. Sometimes it works quickly and sometimes it's a nightmare. Nb I use purpose made targets scattered round the periphery of the tripod - a BIG help; I recommend it. Much easier than trying to align a complex set of features.
It would be very nice if one could overlay like this and use cp's to align the two images then mask and paint out the excess as usual.
I have given up on trying to stitch a 2 X 180 merged tripod nadir shot. Even when it works (not very often for me) there's still a hole to be pattched anyway, even if it is a bit smaller.
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