Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 14:56 GMT
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Hello All,
First off i would like say, I am so glad to have found this forum and from what i have read so far on the threads, you all are a wealth of information.
I own and operate a RC Aerial Imagery business www.uavimagery.com and would love to add aerial 360panos to my product list.
I have been using a Sony A100 and s Canon A650 take my aerial photos but from what i have beeen reading, these cameras will not work that well.
I am looking for professional 360panos, so i think its time for a new camera.
I am looking to keep the shots around 6
What i need: Camera - Lens - Software
I have been lookin at Canon D40x with a 10.5mm . The reason im thinking about the 10.5mm and not the 8mm is although the base of helicopter will rotate around 360 i do have landing gear and the top of the helicopter that will get in the way of the shot with a fov around 180. ? .
In looking at most if not all of the available software. i have narrowed it down to 3. Panoweaver, PTgui and APP.
I am leaning towards Panoweaver because it seems to be the most user friendly (if using the reccomended equipment), it seems to have more options in the way of Virtual tours and can produce a professional product.
i could really use you help in figuring out the best camera/lens/software setup for rc aerial panos and I am more then willing to share information about my aerial equipment.
Fox News Shot a story on my company so if you would like to get a better understanding of how i operate my equipment you can check out the Video at www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jse....1.1&sflg=1/ or there is a link on my website
Thank you
Bill C
UAV Imagery
uavimagery.com
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Smooth
Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 15:40 GMT
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G'day Bill,
Mate, you will be better served with either the Sigma 10mm Fisheye or Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye when mated to a Canon as these lenses connect correctly and allow aperture readings. Where as the adapted Nikkor 10.5mm Fisheye will not. This lens is far better suited to the Nikon/Fuji DSLR. That said the Canon offers far more bang for the buck.
Re: Software, most here will recommend PTGui and with good reason, but don't discount Panoweaver or Autopano Pro. Download and test to see what suits you. Both also offer their own user/support forums that can be of assistance when using their software.
Regards, Smooth 
www.smooth360.info
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Smooth
Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 15:46 GMT
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Bill Clary said: I have been lookin at Canon D40x with a 10.5mm .
Hmm, I think you meant "Nikon D40x with 10.5mm" not Canon.
Still think you will get more for your dollar with a Canon 400D or 450D and Sigma 10mm Fisheye.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.com
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Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 16:44 GMT
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Smooth, thank you for your responce.
Is one of the reason you recomend the canon 400d is because of AEB ? and shooting HDR?
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Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 18:18 GMT
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i have not really tried to produce an HDR photo but If im not mistaken, to shoot HDR photos and panos, i will have to shoot each shot at various exposures. For me to to this while the heli is in the air its going to be pretty hard to change the exposure or i could land and retake the photos but then i would have a problem getting in the exact position again.
I guess HDR panos are out of the question for now, unless im wrong
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Smooth
Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 18:40 GMT
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Hi Bill,
Yes, the lack of bracketing feature along with auto sensor cleaning, plug-in remote or wireless RF, mirror lock-up feature and generally better at higher ISO levels.
I don't personally think the bracketing is a killer, though can be useful. You would need to know if your plan is to ONLY use the camera on the RC/Heli.
Mate, I own multiple cameras including the Nikon D40x and Canon 5D even still have my trusty Canon 10D that I use for pole photography. All do the job and I must say I'm more familiar with Canon's menu structure but that is mostly because I use them more often than not.
Good luck with your decision, one day I would like to learn how to fly a RC/Heli so I too can play aerial photography.
Regards, Smooth
www.smooth360.info
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 718
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 19:30 GMT
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Bill
I'm interested in learning what equipment you use for your Aerial Photography because its something I'd like to add to my services in the future. So I hope we can trade information
Depending on how you mount the camera, your RC Helicopter will probably be in photos taken by all three lenses mentioned.
Doing "ground based" virtual photography with fisheye lenses like the Sigma 8mm, Nikkor 10.5mm and Sigma 10mm usually means the camera is put in Portrait Position to get the most Vertical Field of View because taking more photos around the horizontal plane is easier than taking Zenith and Nadir (Straight up and straight down)shots.
Since "up" will be sky or clouds it shouldn't be that hard to "edit" out the helicopter by covering it up with sky or clouds copied from another part of the source images or the stitched image. I've had to edit out the piece of card stock I used to shade the lens a couple of times and it was quick and painless to copy some "sky" in Photoshop to cover it up.
So I think you'd be better off with a Sigma 8mm f/3.5 and either a Nikon or Canon of your choice. They do make the Sigma 8mm with a Sony mount, I think?
I just got a Sigma 8mm to go with the Canon XTi/400D I have and am practicing a technique of tilting the camera & lens up 10-15° to eliminate the need for a Zenith shot.
You could do the reverse, tilting down 10-15° to make sure you have full coverage & overlap at the Nadir, since you'll have to fill in with copied "sky" to remove the helicopter and small "hole" at the Zenith anyway.
Obviously, I've given the idea of a panoramic photography from a RC Helicopter a little thought.
What equipment are you thinking of using to rotate and release the shutter?
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Philip Warner
Posts: 23
Location: Austin, United States
Registered: 14 Mar 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 16 Apr 2008 at 23:21 GMT
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Bill,
That's a nice video from your local Fox news station!
I have the Sigma 10mm lens on a Canon 30D and I've been very happy with the results in my inexperienced hands. Here's a ground pano I shot this weekend at a local airshow. www.flickr.com/photos/philwarner/2419298488/
I fly a Maxi Joker heli and might build a mount to try an aerial pano soon. I need to get a new motor for it first and the new Scorpion HK4035-500 should be for sale in a few weeks. After I make a few more improvements my ground pano system I'll make something for shooting from the heli.
Phil
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Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 1:03 GMT
updated: 17 Apr 2008 at 1:09 GMT
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Hi Doug,
One of the main reason i was going to stay away from the 8mm is because the helicopter is bigger then a tripod. Meaning - if i use an 8mm the helicopter will be in most of the shots.
If i am mistaken please let me know.
The camera mout i use is from Askman AP www.askmanap.com . It is full belt driven pan(360)and tilt "360 Pro". (Tell him i sent you)
It is gyro stabalized on all 3-axis pan/roll/tilt and the helicopter is gyro stabalized with a Helicommand system
each mount with gyros and wireless video system cost around $800-$1000 when you combine all of necessary equipment.
They have mounts that cost much less and you dont always need a wireless video system, but to creat aerial 360 panos i believe that stuff is necessary. It at least makes the job a whole lot easier
-- Back to panos --
Since i dont think HDR panos are possible right now with a RC helicopter and i think i need a 10.5mm to deal with the helicopter better, would you recomend the nikon d40x?
Im looking to be able to develop a professional product that will be of a very high quality. I would like to keep the camera in the Size of the d40x but am willing to buy any camera (used) and lens combo that will give me a great proudct.
What do you think ?
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 718
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 2:10 GMT
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Bill
I'm not sure I understand how the setup will work from the photos on AskmanAP.com so I'll ask a few questions so I can offer better suggestions
1. Will the Helicopter remain stationary while the camera rotates in the "yoke"?
2. Or will you rotate the helicopter with the camera facing away from the body of the helicopter to keep it out of the photos?
3. While flying, can you tilt the camera straight down to shoot a Nadir shot?
4. How difficult is it to get the helicopter to hover in one spot?
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 3:00 GMT
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Hi Doug,
To answer your questions-
1. For my system the helicopter remains still while the mount rotates.
2. It would be possible to rotate the helicopter at a slower rate then the mount but when i think about it, the tail and the legs of the mount are always mixed with the sky and that is pretty easy to edit.
3. Yes, i have a video down link so i can get a live view and can pre set the mount tilt to move to any preset position.
4, The Money Question - There is no good way to answer this. I use a combanation of things. Good balancing, helicopter gros, mount gyros, and video downlink.
I am wondering how much play i have with the helicopter moving around with Aerial Panos?
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Bill Clary
Posts: 13
Location: United States
Registered: 16 Apr 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 3:27 GMT
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So i am pretty sure i have decided on the Nikon d40x with the 10.5 and the decision came down to the lens. it is pretty clear that the clarity of the 10.5 is much better
So now im in the market for a d40x with 10.5mm and will be selling my Sony A100. Canon HV20 HD camcorder with wide hd-43lens. 4 heli motors and a complete 2.4ghz wireless video system to make this happen
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Rosauro
Posts: 233
Location: Toronto, Canada
Registered: 15 Dec 2006
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 5:24 GMT
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Bill
I would recommend trying out some ground panos first and learn the basics of panos before setting your AP rig for panos.
You'll then figure out what you need to do to set up your heli and mount.
6 shots around has been the norm for ground panos. It's a bit different with an RC heli. You cannot just rotate the mount exactly 60° and shoot. There are variable factors that will affect the shots such as wind. You'll need to shoot in continuous mode. You mentioned rotating your mount slower. It's actually the opposite.
You mentioned the top of the heli will be in the shot. No it doesn't have to be. This all boils down to on your set up. You'll need to angle your camera down about 15°. This way you'll cover the nadir.
With software, personally, I'd use PTGUI.
As for camera and lens, I'd use a fisheye. Use any camera body.
Which HC are you using? 3A? 3D? Rigid? Profi?
For aerial panos you do not need a video downlink. For framed shots then use one.
HDR? For a still shot it's possible on a zero wind day and with a position hold system such as a Carvec or Profi. For HDR panos? Forget it.
Rosauro
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Doug Aurand
Posts: 718
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 5:29 GMT
updated: 17 Apr 2008 at 5:32 GMT
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Bill
The reason I was asking was to answer your question about which lens & camera.
If you already know this, please forgive me, when shooting with either the Sigma 8mm or Nikkor 10.5mm the camera is usually in a portrait position. And its a pretty safe bet that your helicopter will be in the upper part of the shots with both of them.
When shooting on the ground, neither has quite enough vertical Field of View (in portrait position) to cover the entire interior of a sphere. iPIX used to have a set of samples on their website shot with both a Sigma 8mm f/4 and the Nikkor 10.5mm in portrait position. Shot with a Nikon D100, the Sigma had a "dimple" at the Zenith and Nadir, while the Nikkor's smaller field of view left a small black "hole" at the Zenith and the Nadir.
My thinking is that if you want something like the aerial panoramic image in this link ivrpa.org/node/1822 you'll be more concerned with making sure you have full coverage in the "southern hemisphere" because most of what you want to show in the "northern hemisphere" will just be blue sky, assuming you have to shoot on clear calm days that I assume the helicopter works best in.
Sorry about all the assumptions
Since you indicate that hovering in the same postion will be a bit of a challenge, the 4 shots around horizontal with the Sigma 8mm would take less hovering time than the 6 shots around horizontal usually needed with the Nikkor 10.5mm.
Also, by tilting the Sigma down 15° you won't need a 7th Nadir shot like you may with the Nikkor.
Going with a Nikon dSLR will give you the option of being able to use either lenses with a "natural" mount as opposed to using an adapter to put a Nikkor 10.5mm on a Canon. My understaning is that you don't get any EXIF info with the Nikkor on a Canon, which makes stitching more problematic. So if there's a chance you may get the "other" lens at a later date, the Nikon camera is the way to go. My suggestion would be the D80 for the extra resolution
The general opinion is that the Nikkor 10.5mm is a little sharper and brigher than the Sigma 8mm f/3.5, but not drasticly.
If you been reading some comments on various forums, the comments about the Sigma being less sharp usually apply to the older 8mm f/4 that was designed for film cameras, while the f/3.5 was only introduced mid 2006 and is an all new lens designed specifically for digital cameras.
I'm just thinking that there is a definite advantage to 3 fewer shots to take while trying to keep an RC Helicopter hovering in the same spot.
I'll be interested in seeing some of your work
Good luck
Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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Scott Dreslinski
Posts: 57
Location: Rochester Hills, MI, United States
Registered: 30 Jan 2007
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Re: RC Aerial Bizz looking for Pano Help - You have any Questions for me?
Posted: 17 Apr 2008 at 5:47 GMT
updated: 17 Apr 2008 at 5:56 GMT
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Bill,
I used an 8mm sigma 3.5 with my askman 360 mount, and it was not a problem.
A little noodle showed in the left corner, but running it through ptgui stitched and blended it right out.
As Rosauro said, 6 shots won't do it for an aerial pano. You need overlap as your heli will be moving.
For an aerial pano, you program your mount Tx to pan and shoot off of 1 switch.
The D40x and the rebel XTi both crank off about 3fps, so when you flip your switch on the camera mount Tx, the mount starts panning, and the camera starts taking picts.
Once the mount has gone around about 450 degrees, then you can flip the switch to stop the panning/picture taking.
The rebel is nice in the it is very easy and cheap to wire up an electronic trigger and not have to deal with a servo to take picts like you would on the D40x.
AEB won't help you in the air, but on the ground shooting panos it will.
Just be aware, they are addicting. If you shoot them in the air, you will shoot them on the ground, so that is why I like the AEB. 
Also as stated, don't worry about downlink or tilt for aerial panos.
Lock the tilt on the mount (one less thing to worry about and no one can bump the tilt while in the air), at about 10-15 degrees down. Go up in the air, flip your switch , watch it spin, then come down and land. Takes mere minutes to crank one out from takeoff to touchdown.
Like Rosauro said, do them on the ground first, then you will understand what it takes, and what will work best for mounting your camera in the mount. (portrait mode, lens centered under pan bolt).
Best advice I can give is when you're ready, mount the camera in your heli mount with NO heli on the mount.
Hold the top mount plate in your hand, and lift it out away from your body, and up above your head if you can.
flip the switch on your mount, and let it crank around taking picts for 450 degrees.
Then go drop the results into ptgui.
Doing this will allow you to test your camera placement/setup/oh crapp noodles were in the way, etc... while on the ground and not cause any issues or risk while in the air.
Once you can spit out a decent stitch from the above procedure, then you're ready to take it up with your heli and do the same.
Oh yeah, a few samples with said gear, just so you don't think I am a nut.
www.greatlakesap.com/recent/panos/peninsulapanohi...
www.greatlakesap.com/recent/panos/adams.html
www.greatlakesap.com/recent/panos/MissionPano.html
--Scott
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