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Thread: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?

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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 16:51 GMT
Hi,

I wonder if the nodal point of a fisheye converter (such as a FC-E8 or FC-E9) should be different (relative to a fixed reference point on the converter) for different camera combinations. Any one who have used many cameras on the same converter can confirm me with this? Also the nodal point for 2 shots and 3 shots pano has to be different, right?

thanks a lot.


nick
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 17:48 GMT
any one using Agnos MrotatorA or MrotatorB on more than one cameras? Do you need to change the setting on the rotators?


nick
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Smooth

Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 17:58 GMT
updated: 4 Feb 2008 at 17:59 GMT
Nick,

I have used all Agnos products for years and no, you do not need to readjust the lens when changing camera bodies. This doesn't mean that the NPP doesn't change because it does, but it is only slightly and all decent software will deal with slight parallax errors. It should be noted that the MrotatorA/B are designed for use with the camera locked into Fisheye (1) setting. Though you can use the zoom to crop the edges outside of this setting you will effect the NPP quite a bit more.

Also, sensors can very in position from camera to camera by small margins. My tests using the "Grid" method prove the settings (position) of the correctly mounted MrotatorA/B to be very good. (in Fisheye (1) lens mode)

These though are now classed as a part of the past and really all this equipment has been superseded with DSLR cameras and matching fisheye lenses.

Regards, Smooth cool
www.smooth360.info
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John Houghton

Posts: 2130
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 18:08 GMT
Nick, The nodal point(s) and entrance pupil are characteristic of the lens alone. They can be scientifically measured using a nodal slide without any camera involvement at all. A nodal slide is a rig that allows the lens to be rotated about a vertical axis and shifted forwards and backwards - not unlike a pano head.

For a fisheye lens, the entrance pupil position changes with the angle of incidence of the light rays to the optical axis. For a 2 image pano, the seams will be positioned at 90 degrees to the axis, whereas for a 3 image pano, they will be at 60 degrees. So it is best to have the entrance pupil positioned to match the seam positions expected.

John
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 18:23 GMT

John Houghton said:

Nick, The nodal point(s) and entrance pupil are characteristic of the lens alone. They can be scientifically measured using a nodal slide without any camera involvement at all.
John


HI John,

I know the NPP should be independent of the camera. But a fisheye converter is just a part of the lens system. together with the lens of the fixed lens DC, it forms a new lens system.

nick
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 18:38 GMT

Smooth said:

Nick,

I have used all Agnos products for years and no, you do not need to readjust the lens when changing camera bodies. This doesn't mean that the NPP doesn't change because it does, but it is only slightly and all decent software will deal with slight parallax errors. It should be noted that the MrotatorA/B are designed for use with the camera locked into Fisheye (1) setting. Though you can use the zoom to crop the edges outside of this setting you will effect the NPP quite a bit more.
Regards, Smooth cool
www.smooth360.info


Hi Smooth,

Do you take 2 shots or 3 shots on the Mrotator?
Have you taken panos using the fisheye mode 2 setting, full-frame fisheye? I wonder on the quality in full-frame fisheye mode compared to the less expensive DSLR fisheye lens.

nick
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John Houghton

Posts: 2130
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 18:58 GMT

Nick Fan said:

I know the NPP should be independent of the camera. But a fisheye converter is just a part of the lens system. together with the lens of the fixed lens DC, it forms a new lens system.

Nick, Oops! Quite right. Sorry about that - I lost sight of the fact that you were talking about converters.

John
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Smooth

Posts: 1455
Location: Australia
Registered: 21 Jul 2004
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 19:09 GMT
updated: 4 Feb 2008 at 19:15 GMT

Nick Fan said:


Hi Smooth,

Do you take 2 shots or 3 shots on the Mrotator?
Have you taken panos using the fisheye mode 2 setting, full-frame fisheye? I wonder on the quality in full-frame fisheye mode compared to the less expensive DSLR fisheye lens.

nick


Hi Nick,

Yes, in fact I have a Nikon Coolpix 5000 with FC-E8 set up on a older NN2 Beta you sent for testing some years ago and only the other day I did a manual NPP "Grid" test and shot in both Fisheye 1, Fisheye 2 and Manual Cropped/Drum mode. You can get away with two shot but the overlap is small and very hard to abolish the dark vignetting line. Better to shoot 3 shots at 120 degree click stops (or markings in the case of the old NN2).

Quality is much better in FE2 mode of course.

I did a clean up of a "fullscreen" pano for a Easypano forum member not that long ago (zoomed cropped/drum image in manual mode 4 shots at the 90 degrees stops) who was using a Coolpix and FC-E9 I can share the URL privately if you like. I'm sure that he won't mind as it was public on the Easypano forum.

Regards, Smooth cool
www.smooth360.com
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 19:18 GMT

Smooth said:

Quality is much better in FE2 mode of course.

I did a clean up of a "fullscreen" pano for a Easypano forum member not that long ago (zoomed cropped/drum image in manual mode 4 shots at the 90 degrees stops) who was using a Coolpix and FC-E9 I can share the URL privately if you like. I'm sure that he won't mind as it was public on the Easypano forum.

Regards, Smooth cool
www.smooth360.com


Hi Smooth,

yes, please send me the link to the pano or the post in asypano forum.

thanks a lot.


nick
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 19:29 GMT
hey, I find a 2-shot sample pano from FC-E8 and the new nikon P5100 12mp DC.
tiny.cc/d2fR2
I guess the quality is still not good compared to DSLR.


nick
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badders

Posts: 31
Location: East Kilbride, United Kingdom
Registered: 5 Dec 2007
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 20:49 GMT
updated: 4 Feb 2008 at 20:54 GMT
Hey! My web site is now a "Tiny URL"! Cool!

If the Scottish weather permits tomorrow, I'll take a 3 shot from the Sigma 4.5mm f/2.8 and a 3 shot from the Sunex 5.6mm f/5.6 at the same location so you can compare like for like.

The Sigma 4.5mm will be on a Nodal Ninja 5 rotator so the comments about the differences in position between a 2 shot and a three shot are interesting to me as I was testing the 2 shot/3 shot Sigma 4.5mm and I did think there was a different position needed, not sure if it needs to move forwards or backwards though....

Andrew Baddeley
www.360tacticalvr.co.uk
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 4 Feb 2008 at 21:21 GMT

badders said:

Hey! My web site is now a "Tiny URL"! Cool!
Andrew Baddeley
www.360tacticalvr.co.uk


Hi Andrew,

sorry for the tiny URL. the link is too long and will get broken.
I hope you don't mind linking to your pano. wink
nick
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Doug Aurand

Posts: 471
Location: Albuquerque, NM, United States
Registered: 2 Jan 2008
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 5 Feb 2008 at 4:46 GMT
Nick
There's not a different Nodal Point when shooting 2 or 3 shots with an FC-E8 or FC-E9.

I've done both 2 and 3 shot virtual images using the same lenses and cameras and they stitch the same.

I have an old Coolpix 950 with an FC-E8 and use a Coolpix 5400 with and FC-E9 for real estate tours

I've used 2 different iPIX Rotators for 2 and 3 shot captures and the position of the camera/lens doesn't change.

The iPIX Rotators were camera and lens specific. There's and arm/cradle that holds the camera and lens and it bolts onto either a 2 or 3 stop stem. The 3 stop stems from iPIX are kind of rare but I have one.

The other way I've done both 2 and 3 stop captures is locking up the iPIX Rotator Stem and putting it on a Manfrotto 3414 Panoramic Head. Then I just move the set screw on the 3414 from 4 stops to 6 stops and skip every other stop.

I normally do 2 shot captures, but Friday did a 3 shot capture because I wasn't sure if I was "spliting the light source" correctly. That's something unique to the 2 fisheye capture method. So I just moved the stop screw and shot a 3 fisheye capture for that scene and put it back to do 2 fisheye captures for the rest of the house.

iPIX used the same arm/cradle regardless of whether you ordered a 2 or 3 stop stem. The arm/cradle is what positioned the Nodal Point with iPIX Rotators

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM
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John Houghton

Posts: 2130
Location: Hitchin, United Kingdom
Registered: 17 Jan 2005
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 5 Feb 2008 at 10:51 GMT
Michel Thoby measured the entrance pupil position at different angles for the FC-E8 and his results are at:

michel.thoby.free.fr/Laseresult.html

John
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Nick Fan
[NodalNinja]

Posts: 243
Location: Hong Kong
Registered: 26 May 2006
Re: Different nodal points for fisheye converter on different DCs?
Posted: 5 Feb 2008 at 13:17 GMT

Doug Aurand said:

Nick
There's not a different Nodal Point when shooting 2 or 3 shots with an FC-E8 or FC-E9.

I've done both 2 and 3 shot virtual images using the same lenses and cameras and they stitch the same.

I have an old Coolpix 950 with an FC-E8 and use a Coolpix 5400 with and FC-E9 for real estate tours

I've used 2 different iPIX Rotators for 2 and 3 shot captures and the position of the camera/lens doesn't change.

The iPIX Rotators were camera and lens specific. There's and arm/cradle that holds the camera and lens and it bolts onto either a 2 or 3 stop stem. The 3 stop stems from iPIX are kind of rare but I have one.

The other way I've done both 2 and 3 stop captures is locking up the iPIX Rotator Stem and putting it on a Manfrotto 3414 Panoramic Head. Then I just move the set screw on the 3414 from 4 stops to 6 stops and skip every other stop.

I normally do 2 shot captures, but Friday did a 3 shot capture because I wasn't sure if I was "spliting the light source" correctly. That's something unique to the 2 fisheye capture method. So I just moved the stop screw and shot a 3 fisheye capture for that scene and put it back to do 2 fisheye captures for the rest of the house.

iPIX used the same arm/cradle regardless of whether you ordered a 2 or 3 stop stem. The arm/cradle is what positioned the Nodal Point with iPIX Rotators

Doug Aurand
Albuquerque, NM


Hi Doug,

Am I right to assume that the NNP is aligned for 2-shot pano? but since there are lots of overlap in 3-shot panos, any parallax can be easily corrected by the software?
BTW, what is the progress of your ebook in pano making? Is it going to be a commercial one?


nick
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