Pete Loud
Posts: 151
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 14 Oct 2006
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Panos with people in them
Posted: 21 Sep 2007 at 9:11 GMT
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Most panos that I see are static views of scenery or buildings with no people, few people in them, or the people are far enough away from the camera that they and their movements are small compared to individual image, i.e. effectively static. I now feel it is time for me to try and take a few panos with people in them but I suspect it is not that easy.
One of my earliest pano attempts was a partial pano taken in a Chinese temple where people were rushing around setting up a ceremonial feast. I took the easy way out and tried to take my shots when people were out of the view. I think the picture would have been much better if I had caught the action by having people in it.
www.peterloud.co.uk/photos/Penang/Penang_1.html
(It was probably only the 3rd pano that I tried after I buying a second-hand Canon 350D with a standard lens, and was taken using a primitive home-made pano-head bracket so there are many flaws with it).
Next time I encounter a situation like this I want to get the people in and give it a bit more life.
Initially I am thinking of natural, not posed, panos where people may be 5 - 15m away, perhaps a street scene or a scene like the temple above. Ultimately I'd like to be able to try shots such as inside a bar where people are 2 - 8m away. As a musician who plays the fiddle in pub traditional music sessions I'd like to be able to take a pano surrounded by musicians. Although I suspect that the problem inside bars will be the lighting.
Are any particular techniques needed?
I suspect that a fisheye lens will make it much easier but I'm hesitant to add an 8mm Sigma to my Canon 350D's 10-20mm Sigma until I know it is necessary. Would it be worth it?
When taking such panos should I have much greater overlaps with the shots. Should I take each shot twice or even three times so I have more material for editing the image.
Any advice and suggestions will be most appreciated.
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Mark Schuster
Posts: 730
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Registered: 25 Jan 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 21 Sep 2007 at 21:42 GMT
updated: 21 Sep 2007 at 21:43 GMT
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Pete,
If you are willing to sacrifice perfect panoramas to dynamic scenes, get yourself an 8mm fisheye lens for your 350D, leave your tripod at home, and shoot as fast as you can into a crowd while rotating your whole self around.
This is done with a 300D. (I've shown this before, sorry sorry if you have already seen it.)
panoradiant.co.uk/eastend_dvr/liverpoolst.htm
Keep in mind that you will go almost unnoticed handheld, something almost impossible with tripod.
Mark
P.S. But when it comes to quality, you'll need that tripod and pano-head
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Roundshot
Posts: 83
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Registered: 27 Jul 2004
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 1:09 GMT
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Hello:
Good is a motorized VR head with highspeed option like the MK PanoMachine
 www.vr-head.com
Up to 6 shots in only 3 seconds are possible...
... the new SEITZ D 3 panoramic camera (from 2 seconds per rotation) is also very nice) however another price range...
Have a nice day
Marc
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James Rigg
[Panoguide]
Posts: 292
Location: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 1 Jun 2003
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 7:35 GMT
updated: 22 Sep 2007 at 7:41 GMT
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Hi Pete,
The problem with people is the fact they move, which causes problems at the seams - so if you are using a very wide angle lens such as an 8mm fisheye, you reduce the number of pictures required, therefore reducing seams, etc.
The other thing you can try is to ensure you have a good overlap between shots (say 30%, perhaps a little more?) - this then provides you with scope for editing the blend over the seam more precisely.
In my panoramas I no longer worry about people so much, because I know I allow enough overlap that I can edit people in and out of the stitched image using the stencil functionality in RealViz Stitcher. At St Paul's in Melaka (not that far from you Pete?) there were many people climbing up and down the stairs where I was shooting - I used stencils extensively to edit people in and out of the panorama.
I have previously achieved the same thing by saving the stitched image as a layered PhotoShop file and editing the seams in PhotoShop. One of my panoramas near Tower Bridge in London was carefully edited in this way.
Regards
James.
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Pete Loud
Posts: 151
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 14 Oct 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 8:20 GMT
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for your replies, you have given me a few ideas.
Mark
Your Liverpools St. shot is similar to one of the things I have in mind in terms of the number of people the closeness to them. If that can be done without a tripod that's what I'll go for. I'll give it a try with my 10-22mm lens. I am not unduly bothered if there are a few technical imperfections if I can capture the atmosphere of the scene.
Roundshot
Recently I have been looking into incorporating a stepper motor into a pano-head but the example you point to is a much bigger and more expensive than I would want. Is the issue speed of rotation or care in framing of the shots? I feel that careful framing and ensuring that key object are within one frame is more important.
James
I found your pano of Jonkers St. more interesting, and closer to what I want to take but trying to shoot that at night makes it almost an impossible shot. I have not come across this Stencil function in RealViz.
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Mark Houston
Posts: 80
Location: Ferndale, Michigan, United States
Registered: 23 Aug 2005
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 15:29 GMT
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Hello Pete
The best tip I can give you is practice, practice, practice.
Pick one lens to work with and really get to know it.
Don't rush yourself when making the images.
Sometimes you might have take multiple images of the same view and pick the best ones to use in the stitch (better to take to many images then not enough)
Take a look at the pans on this page.
www.360michigan.net/2007dreamcruise.html
The first panorama I shot a total of 47 images and pick the best 12 to use in the stitch.
Hope this Helps
Mark Houston
http;//www.360michigan.net
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Mark Schuster
Posts: 730
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Registered: 25 Jan 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 20:26 GMT
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Everyone is right, Pete, except Roundshot and his wierd device; Well, I doubt whether he thought it through. Firstly, you want to be in charge of timing the individual shots not the machine, and secondly he says Up to 6 shots in only 3 seconds are possible... Sorry, your 350D can't upload to CF memory that fast except at very low resolution, and certainly not six JPEGs at 8MB per shot, or RAW - well let's not even bother to do the sums. I know it isn't possible because I use your camera's elder brother, the 300D with only 6MB per shot.
For pano-journalism, to coin an expression, in a crowd you (I) may be excused less than perfect, handheld panoramas as the price of being as inconspicuous as possible.
Have a look at this: Did anybody notice me as I pirouetted in the middle of the street?
panoradiant.co.uk/Hertford/hertford_market_1.htm
Mark
P.S. If everything permits, use a tripod and pano-head, in anycase.
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James Rigg
[Panoguide]
Posts: 292
Location: London, United Kingdom
Registered: 1 Jun 2003
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 22 Sep 2007 at 20:38 GMT
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Hi Pete,
The Jonker St panorama was great fun, but I had to use a really long exposure so most people ended up with vapour trails anyway even before any stitching happened! I used flash to attempt to freeze people in the foreground, but as you can see the results are a bit of a mess (unless you happen to like the blur?). I did use stencils however to edit out some people and ensure the the stall holders (who were not walking briskly past the camera) are not blurred.
Had I been able to shoot with a faster shutter speed (I think should have got to the location earlier in the night and then the light would not have been as harsh) I think the panorama would have worked out better
Regards
James.
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Roundshot
Posts: 83
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Registered: 27 Jul 2004
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 23 Sep 2007 at 5:25 GMT
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Dear Mark:
I own a Canon EOS 350 D and you can make highspeed panoramas  - however you are right, with the older model Canon EOS 300 D you have to reduce speed.
With the "small" Canon cameras EOS 350 D, 400 D you can realize a very fast workflow...
Have a nice day
Marc
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Mark Schuster
Posts: 730
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Registered: 25 Jan 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 23 Sep 2007 at 11:56 GMT
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Hi Marc,
Thanks for the correction concerning acquisition speed of 350D.
MfG
Mark
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Vilmer
Posts: 151
Location: Argentina
Registered: 23 May 2007
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 24 Sep 2007 at 1:43 GMT
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Hey Pete,
the day before yesterday I went to shoot a pano of our local phallus symbol, the Obelisco (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obelisk_of_Buenos_Aires), because I saw on the news that it was covered in an Argentine and German vlag. This because of so many years of commercial activities between the 2 nations. When I got there, there was a big traffic mess, and a lot of people for obvious reasons. So I had to shoot in the crowd for the first time. And I did... after daydreaming a few minutes on which one I would test the quality of Jäger condoms.
I did 2 rounds of pics, 6 pics each round, no top or bottom, used an 8mm Peleng fisheye on a Canon 10D. Because I used a tripod I could not get closer to the trailer unfortunately. Afterwards I had to do a lot of layer masking in photoshop on the seams. (I stitched in Ptgui and made a layered psd output) Luckily the people did not move a lot. I used the patch tool in photoshop for the top/bottom holes.
I made 3 different pano's with the 12 pics I shot, find the differences and the impossibilities(for example the girl in the 2nd pano under the first 'E'of Siemens with the white sweater and red handbag under her arm could never walk there like that without falling  ):
blog.vamos360.com/panos/?p=dia+de+primavera
blog.vamos360.com/panos/?p=dia+de+primavera+2
blog.vamos360.com/panos/?p=dia+de+primavera+3
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fatchai
Posts: 278
Location: n/a, Hong Kong
Registered: 17 Mar 2005
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Pete Loud
Posts: 151
Location: United Kingdom
Registered: 14 Oct 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 24 Sep 2007 at 8:17 GMT
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Hi Guys,
You make it look so easy. I bet I am in for a shock when I try 
I guess I could manage the shots in Hong Kong, the people are not so close and there are a couple of vertical strips which are static zones and great for joins.
I don't think I could do anything like the shots of BA with my 10-20mm lens. I'd have to spend days editing and still have mis-matches. I shall give it a try before I buy an 8mm lens.
I don't think a few discontinuities in panos like those matter. What is important is capturing the spirit of the place. In fact I think it makes them more interesting. It is not only fun looking for and finding broken up areas but it encourages the viewer to examine the picture in more detail and get more out of it.
Cheers, - Pete
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Vilmer
Posts: 151
Location: Argentina
Registered: 23 May 2007
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 24 Sep 2007 at 13:41 GMT
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Hi Pete,
if you'd like, I can put the pics and the ptgui file or the psd online for you to download so you can experiment with them.
Regards,
Vilmer
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Mark Schuster
Posts: 730
Location: Welwyn Garden City, United Kingdom
Registered: 25 Jan 2006
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Re: Panos with people in them
Posted: 25 Sep 2007 at 9:45 GMT
updated: 25 Sep 2007 at 10:15 GMT
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Vilmer,
Great crowd shots and only a few clones to be seen. You are right, they don't move around a lot. But that poor girl in the red lace-up boots. First she is going to be tripped by the guy with the back-pack, then run down by the motorcylclist. Not fair! I'd give them both red cards. I'm really worried about her. Couldn't you Photoshop the fellow with the back-pack out of the scene altogether? He seems out of proportion to me, anyhow I've grown quite fond of the girl, but don't like him at all!
Mark
P.S. Top/bottom holes! Bottom holes, OK: Unavoidable, but top holes? I am surprised that such a good panographer doesn't use the old trick of tilting your Peleng up by a few degrees so that the zenith is integrated and stitched in with the rest of your shots. Someone told me about that, only after which did it seem obvious.
Finaly, Vilmer, you said, ... that it was covered in an Argentine and German vlag Did you mean Verlag? = publisher or in this case press, I suppose.
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